https://lemmy.ml/comment/16125064
Starring: blindbunny, BrainInABox and of course, the one and only, Cowbee!
Imagine not being able to tell the difference between “I don’t believe half of their users are trans” and “I don’t believe in their users being trans”.
Demographics isn’t transphobic. Using trans people as a shield from criticism is.
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Lots of leftists and even leftist groups/spaces acknowledge and criticize the bigotry of lowered expectations. Sometimes called the soft bigotry of lowered expectations. It’s when you cut members of marginalized groups more slack simply because they’re marginalized. Whether someone means it or not, it perpetuates that someone is less smart, less capable, simply because they’re (gender)queer, a POC, disabled, etc. What you’re describing fits the bill.
I’m part of leftist groups that call it out for the bigotry it is, and I hope you can find a leftist group that does, too. They do exist. Or maybe otherwise, you can read a little about the bigotry of lowered expectations and bring it up for discussion with groups that are unknowingly guilty of it. Maybe they can learn from you.
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Trans, or LGBT issues in general are used as argumentative shibboleths and rallying points.
In reality, these are non-issues that shouldn’t really concern anyone except those directly affected by them. But the extremists on both sides chose to make them front and center for literally any discussion.
It’s a culture war fueled by a bunch of narcissistic idiots and financed by ghouls who love to see the plebs destroy itself.
I feel for both you and your friend. Over the last while with trans stuff being in the news so much it does feel like being constantly under fire with a lot of hope for things getting better like they were even five years ago going by the wayside. I have a friend who has struggled with BPD on top of being trans and it has been kind of hard telling her that she actually is being a little too sensitive and assuming way more hostility than she’s actually receiving from people in her life by “mind reading” intentions that are not there.
As one of the few other trans people in her life it’s really hard being her reality check. When we queer folk have community we do a better job of keeping each other grounded and advocating for the general intentions of cis family, friends and romantic partners and give them grace to be imperfect allies. We can acknowledge when things suck because of a lack of understanding or because someone is still hurting us despite not wanting to… But that’s not always based out of transphobia. The world is imperfect and sometimes that means we don’t always have our cake and eat it too.
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What you’re referring to is quite frustrating, I agree. Even more concerning is that it’s such an obvious vector for foreign actors to leverage in an attempt to weaken the geopolitical dominance of the Western world.
If Russia and China aren’t running psyops and trying to exacerbate the obvious political divide within western nations by utilizing transgender ideology as a wedge topic, they’re not even trying. It’s just such an obvious vulnerability that it beggars belief to think they wouldn’t be trying to fan those flames as much as possible.
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So you agree trans people are vulnerable and taken advantage of in the media and general political discourse but the “leftys” lost you cause you talked to some people you didn’t like? I don’t know about you but I’d rather be on the side of an annoying trans person than the side of another old racist with lead poisoning who plays the victim card when people don’t like them.
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This isn’t related to the thread conversation, at all, but your username is fantastic.
Thanks for bringing this up, Cowbee has been banned.
That guy is so annoying with his faux-neutrality/naivety. What a phony, good riddance.
Please look at my very comprehensive “intro to leftism” reading list which is entirely comprised of ML essays and makes no attempt at contextualizing these works within broader leftist philosophy.
Haha indeed, spot on
Wait where has he been banned from? discuss.tchncs.de or here?
Alright thanks good to know. Thank you for taking such action. I have rarely seen someone acting so innocent yet at the same time being so disingenuous.
I wonder where those demographics came from.
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(also, who the fuck says “biological men” in the transgender context, its called transgender women)
Conservatives and other right wing that’s who. That’s why you hear tankie leadership saying it.
Tankies are anti-lgbtq at their core. Anything to simp for totalitarians.
Maybe this is just an online thing? IRL I hang out with quite a few Marxist-Leninists, Maoists, and other folks who’d usually get categorized as tankies and I don’t think I’ve heard them be bigoted towards queer people during the years I’ve known them. I’m also openly queer so it’s not like I’m just an “ally” saying that they don’t see bigotry happening just because they ignore it.
These same folks are also organizing most of the pride events around here and running volunteer security for protests and drag shows, so I’d have a hard time believing that they’re secretly bigoted while spending a lot of their time, money, and taking personal risks to foster a queer community and keep it safe.
I think this scenario highlights the difference between communists and tankies. Tankies are a subset of communists (or at least claim to be) but not all communists are tankies.
I’m sure it’ll be hilarious when I explain to my co-organizers that the Stalinist in our group isn’t a tankie because they support LGBTQ+ rights
What I mean is that, lacking any other info, communist does not automatically equal authoritarian. There is a tragic amount of overlap between those two Ven diagram circles but it is not an intrinsic thing is all I’m pointing out. Of course I know nothing about the specifics of this situation in particular, and I’m not so arrogant as to talk as though I do. I’m just making a general point.
Makes sense, and thank you for the clarification!
Well I suppose you could have not seen it.
However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Considering the big-tent-tankies quite openly discuss (or refuse to discuss) the issue leaves me with ample proof of the movements leadership holding a certain position.
Actually, most of the people who’d normally be described as tankies (Stalinists, Marxist-Leninists, CPUSA members, other flavors of communist that want to seize state power and use it against the capitalist class) that I’ve met are some variety of queer themselves. In my organizing circles usually the queer folks outnumber the few token cis-het people, so again, it could just be that my IRL circles don’t represent the norm.
For context, I’m usually organizing at the local level. I know that things suck at the national level in a lot of orgs like IWW and CPUSA, there’s toxic leadership in there that have seized power in order to keep their own positions and are really ruining the image and functioning of both orgs. Yeah, CPUSA leadership might suck, but your local communists that you might write off as tankies might actually be really caring people.
To be fair, hexbear did ban those devs for those comments.
It’s a little noted fact that the lemmy devs don’t really fuck with hexbear or vice versa. Presumably they also recognize the same childish, bad faith, obnoxious argumentative tactics that we have all come to know and love from hexbear.
While I’m on the topic, Nutomic and Dessalines also have very different views, and constantly referring to them as the monolithic tankie lemmy devs is somewhat reductive. Dessalines seems to be the more tankie-ish of the two based on the evidence I’ve seen.
It’s fair to assume that a good number of the OG lemmy.ml users and lemmygrad users aren’t big fans of hexbear either, considering hexbear has always maintained a separate space for themselves. Pretty wild that hexbear users are so toxic and misanthropic that even other tankies are repelled by them.
I used to think Reddit was wild
Then I got on Lemmy…
It seems unlikely that half of their users would be transgender, given that transgender people make up roughly .5% of the overall population; gay people (gay men + lesbians) make up roughly 4.5-5% of the overall population the last time I looked at demographics. All of the LGBTQ+ people together make up about 6% of the total population in the US.
These numbers might have changed somewhat in the last year or two since I last check surveys, but it’s not likely that it’s changed enough to move the numbers sharply.
I know that there was some investigative reporting in my state a few months ago trying to figure out how many minors would be affected by a state-level ban on insurance covering gender-affirming care for minors, and the number was in in the very low double digits. The same kind of numbers of athletes would be affected by bans on ‘biological males’ competing in womens’ sports.
I’m just saying that it just doesn’t seem very likely that an instance with thousands of users would have that kind of demographics, esp. when you consider that Hexbear broadly has a monolithic political identity.
I’m just saying that it just doesn’t seem very likely that an instance with thousands of users would have that kind of demographics, esp. when you consider that Hexbear broadly has a monolithic political identity.
Comrade just learned what an intersectional identity group is
I think that you might misunderstand. Transgender people are already a very, very small minority. The number of people that are in favor of authoritarian communism is also quite low (certainly in the US, at least). Even if you assume that, say, 50% of all trans people are supportive of authoritarian communism, that’s still an incredibly tiny number.
I can’t say that I know a ton of transgender people, but the ones that I’ve personally known have trended well into anarchism, because they recognize the risk of allowing anyone to control their body other than themselves.
Transgender people are already a very, very small minority. The number of people that are in favor of authoritarian communism is also quite low (certainly in the US, at least).
Couple things:
- They might each be small minorities of the overall population, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have a very large overlap with each other. Assuming that they don’t simply because you don’t personally know many who fit that intersection could just mean that you don’t frequent the same spaces they do - possibly because you don’t share one or either of those characteristics
- I’ll let you do your own math and get back to me if your calculated percentages could possibly add up to 700 people (half of an estimated 1400 monthly active users) on the internet who identify as both trans and communist
Estimated “over 1,400” monthly users. Be honest with your numbers.
Ok so 800 people. Hell, let’s bump it up to 1,000 people. Let me know if there could reasonably be 1,000 people online who are both communist and trans
I don’t believe ANY hexbear users are leftists either.
they’ll probably say that’s leftphobic. These cretins can’t manage logic and reason.
There are definitely some that have been lured in by the grift. I feel bad for those people but there’s no way for us to reach them as long as they stay in the hexbear bubble.
Hell, I’ve had to deal with MAGAts for years, I see no difference in how I will do that with tankies.
Shitbirds of a feather, Randy.
I’m not saying I’m going to cater to them or give them any special effort, I’m just saying I feel bad because they were possibly headed in a generally good ideological direction before they stumbled onto hexbear and got totally brainwashed.
It’s frustrating to think about what might have been.
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Literally the only place I have ever experienced transphobia on Lemmy was from a hexbear, who called me a chaser for saying that my ex was a trans woman.
so you’re telling me that you used to free dive in the the deep part of the Mediterranean? that’s thalassophobic /s
I might be missing something. they may be making assumptions about you but how is calling someone a chaser transphobic?
Calling someone a chaser solely on the grounds that they claim to have dated a trans woman could imply “no cis male could be interested in a trans woman outside of pure fetish bait”, which is awfully reductive. It casts the trans woman as an object in the relationship rather than an equal partner.
The fuck with this obsession of telling people whether they are or are not trans online?
I don’t see anyone doing that in this example. Are you misinterpreting the meaning of the original statement?
“I definitely do not believe half their users are trans”
That’s just them saying that the count is off. Theyre not calling anyone not trans. If I did a survey and the results were faulty about the amount of Black people, would it be racist to say the numbers seem off? About 0.5-1.6% of people in the US identify as trans. It would be quite a feat if half of their users were trans, when the unifying ideology is communism. Of course there are more trans people with leftist views, but what percentage of leftists are trans? We don’t have that number, but the chances of it equaling out to half of any user base that isn’t specifically trans-oriented are slim.
If they were to say “50% Of our user base has blue eyes,” it wouldn’t be hateful of blue eyed people to say that number is incorrect. It’s not about he identity of the unifying quality, it’s literally just about the claim that the number is way higher than it realistically is. You’re equating the hateful desire to erase trans people with simply saying “I don’t think the numbers can be that high.” Because it’s a touchy subject. But calling into question the probability isn’t hateful. Just math.
f I did a survey and the results were faulty about the amount of Black people, would it be racist to say the numbers seem off?
If you had no material reason to doubt those numbers and it was a community that was built by and for black people and you had a motivation to be blind to their minority status then… yea, it would be racist to say “I don’t believe it”
People who frequent MoG don’t want to acknowledge the trans and minority makeup of hexbear because that conflicts with their self-image of being trans allies… It has nothing to do with any factual basis of doubt of that demographic.
If you had no material reason to doubt those numbers
they do, though: transfolk represent a exceptionally small but real segment of the population; the idea that all of them found the same lemmy instance and joined it exclusively vs. allies and other users is pretty improbable.
this isn’t anyone questioning their honesty, simply remarking that the odds of it being that way are infinitesimal.
Transfolk represent a exceptionally small but real segment of the population; the idea that all of them found the same lemmy instance and joined it exclusively vs. allies and other users is pretty improbable.
Except:
- a: hexbear existed long before most of the ‘allied’ lemmy instances you’re referring to
- b: it was created explicitly as a safe-space for trans leftists
- c: the ‘allies’ you’re referring to constantly have struggle sessions like this one
It’s a little funny to me that a piece of this calculation is basically: “the probability that they’d all hang out together and not with me is just so low I don’t believe it” lmao
c: the ‘allies’ you’re referring to constantly have struggle sessions like this one It’s a little funny to me that a piece of this calculation is basically: “the probability that they’d all hang out together and not with me is just so low I don’t believe it” lmao
sure thing sport.
There is a reason: it’s that those numbers are highly improbable. That’s a very good reason to say “I don’t think you can back up your claim.” The burden of proof isn’t on the person saying they don’t think the number is realistic, it’s on the person who pulled a percentage out of their ass lol
That’s my first and overarching point. My secondary point is that this is a falsely touchy topic. It’s not actually touchy, but because a particular embattled group is the subject being counted, it suddenly becomes perceived as caustic. Exactly as we’re seeing with you, right now. You’re perceiving a greater injustice than what the actual situation is exhibiting.
No one is calling into question the existence and plight of trans people. It’s just that you can’t pull a number out of your ass. Just because the number is counting an oppressed minority, suddenly people will falsely jump to say, “HEY!” Even though it’s not warranted. If the number we’re counting anything else, they wouldn’t be coming for the existence X, Y, or Z. If the person said “I have 2,000 carrots at my house” and another said, “that’s highly unlikely,” that person wouldn’t have anything against carrots. See what I’m saying,
There is no one coming after trans people. This person is coming at another person for making up a number. Simple as.
Third, actually, the original person is standing up for trans people because the hexbear user is throwing trans people in front of the actual subject of the attack: hexbear users. So you’re def angry at the wrong person.
The burden of proof isn’t on the person saying they don’t think the number is realistic, it’s on the person who pulled a percentage out of their ass lol
“I don’t believe you’re trans, because trans people are exceedingly rare, and the burden of proof is on you for having pulled your self-identity out of your ass lmao”
It’s incredibly transphobic to assume those who self-report to be in a targeted minority are lying for some rhetorical benefit. Nobody wants to be subject to the harassment that comes with being gender non-binary, not even to score some hypothetical internet points.
That’s wholly mischaracterizing the discussion.
“Half is X.”
Based on what?
“How dare you be so hateful!”
It’s a ridiculous argument. Throwing “transphobe” onto things that just happen to pertain to transgendered people, regardless of what’s actually being discussed, hurts the community way more than saying a claimed percentage is probably inaccurate. Way more.
This is the Israeli defense: anything that they don’t want to hear, they call antisemitic. Because it’s easier than having an argument and immediately puts the accused on their back foot.
But, and I’m sure you’ll agree with me here, that tactic ends up hurting Semitic people way more than whatever was being dismissed by Israel. That attitude is far more harmful to the conversation than engaging with the factual basis of the conversation.
Does changing the framing in that way help you see what I’m saying?
Fuck transphobia. I want the trans community to flourish and to be happy and free. But throwing the entire community in front of yourself in a personal argument in order to use “you’re transphobic” as a cudgel in a convo that otherwise isn’t about the actual trans community hurts the whole community way, way more. Because idiots will use that kind of shit as an excuse to hate the whole community—it’s basically asking for generalizing because you introduced the concept into the conversation. Just like idiots on the left have taken to antisemitism in a misconceived attempt at defending the Palestinian people, idiots will absolutely pick up the ball of likening an individual to the whole trans community.
I’m not your enemy here. I’m arguing for the trans community. We are having a difference of understanding but we both think we’re arguing for the same side. See what I’m trying to say?
That is not the same as telling someone they aren’t trans. He’s expressing doubt about the veracity of the results of the poll, not about any particular user(s)
There’s no actual reason to cast doubt on that makeup except for whatever prejudices you have against that community, and any amount of actual investigation would dispel those doubts.
There’s no actual reason to cast doubt on that makeup except for whatever prejudices you have against that community
Not trusting the administrators is not an actual reason to doubt what the administrators say?
We read the same statement. I interpret it as “I believe less than half of the userbase of the instance is trans” which does not rise to the level of telling someone they aren’t trans. Was anyone specific named or called out as “not trans”? Was there any direct accusation of insincerity or fakery with regards to an individual’s self-identification?
They conduct their own demographic polling - unless you believe their users are lying about their identity there is more demographic evidence in support of that figure than there is evidence to the contrary.
With regards to the polling you’ve referenced: of the 598 respondants, less than half indicated that they were definitively not cisgender. Hexbear, per prolewiki has “over 1,400 monthly users”.
Not only does the raw data from the self-report survey not bear out the premise that half of the users are trans, it also does not factor in response bias, which impacts any such survey.
K, if the survey is wrong then it can be wrong the other way too, maybe OVER half the user base is trans.
Sure, it could be. But there is no inherent level of “telling someone they aren’t trans” by stating a belief that less than half are.
less than half indicated that they were definitively not cisgender
It is just as accurate to say that less than half indicated that they definitively are cisgender - it depends on if you include questioning individuals is a part of the culturally dominant majority cisgender group, or if you view the questioning of your socially-reinforced gender as a departure from the norm.
Hexbear, per prolewiki has “over 1,400 monthly users”.
A sample group of 42% in any survey would be considered a high-quality representation, even when including the likelihood of response bias. But, then again, there’s still even less evidence for assuming it’s inaccurate simply because trans and communist identities are extremely uncommon in the general population - especially when hexbear is explicitly a trans-friendly leftist space.
Of course it can be. But the viewpoint called into question is “I don’t believe that half the users are trans”. Based on the data you personally referenced, that is a valid viewpoint for someone to hold without telling anyone who identifies specifically as trans that they are wrong about their gender.
Further, 598 is not 42% of “over 1,400”.
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Hexbear existed as its own thing long before there were any lib instances to troll. It’s far more likely that their ideological framework is earnest and is simply incompatible with your own.
What a transphobic thing to say. You must be trans
I commented one time on the bear that Ukraine has a right to self defense and self actualization and got flooded by 15 different users, all pro-russia, then banned.
Oooook. But that tracks I guess. I lean left and theres nothing I hate more than leftists, except fascists… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
“You people,” huh?
I hate how they’re incapable of actually thinking, so they latch onto specific phrases so they can pretend you’re a racist so they don’t have to engage with what you’re actually saying
how do i block any post with “hexbear” anywhere in the title or comments?
Most mobile clients allow you to hide posts that contain a certain keyword in their title. Here’s a non-exhaustive list of clients that support keyword filtering off the top of my head:
- Voyager (multiplatform; I believe you need to have the app because the option doesn’t show up on the website for me)
- Mlem (iOS)
- Arctic (iOS)
- Thunder (Android)
- Sync (Android)
I don’t know of any that can hide posts with a keyword mentioned in any of the post’s comments; doing so would require the client to make a lot of extra API requests.
Step 1 might be getting off this community?
Keyword blocking
I’m just always wondering about then being pro trans and pro-governement that is very anti-queer, I just can’t.
Tankies and typical extremists always think they’ll be spared, or considered ‘one of the good ones’
Denying the self-reported identity of a marginalized person is absolutely bigoted, and those demographics come directly from self-reported polling data.
Unless you are simply unaware that they conduct their own demographic polling, dismissing those demographics as ‘not real’ is the same thing as accusing those users of lying about being trans
