I’d argue that Nancy Pelosy is more representative of the dems than AOC.
Well, I’d argue Nancy is more representative of wealthy American neo-liberals, which most of us are not.
I’d even argue is Nancy even a dem at this point she’s more of a centrist parading around as a dem.
Nancy is more representative of wealthy American neo-liberals
Yes which is much closer to who the Dems are representing as a whole
That’s fair I’d agree with it.
No, based upon the popularity of policies, AOC is FAR closer to representing normal people than more conservative democrats like Pelosi are?
There is a reason people hate centrist corporate democrats, it is because they don’t even pretend to push policies people desperately need.
people hate centrist corporate democrats
Then why do we keep electing them in primaries?
While Nancy’s actual politics may be more centrists than dem, shes still one of the old guards that must go away for any actual change in the party.
Dems are centrists.
I totally agree with you she must go, she’s part of the let’s maintain the status quo dems.
The Dems are centrists. They always have been.
You know “centrist” is not a political party, right? Fuckin kids these days, what are they teaching you…
Literally nothing considering I’m an adult these days. But how’s being a smug ass hat been going for ya?
Better than not being one, I guess
That’s a funny take. The former speaker of the house who hand selected her replacement and was the leader of the Democratic caucus for more than a decade, and you’re basically calling them a DINO
MAGA regularly calls Mitch McConnell a RINO. Why should we handle Nancy any differently?
Right, lol. I guess the other user thought they had me in some sort of gotcha moment.
You guys are so right, maga does it, that means it’s correct
/S
It means that a true Democrat or Republican is one who represents the views of their constituents. Not who holds the reins of power in their respective parties. This is a valid definition.
I don’t believe that is a valid definition. A good politician is someone who represents the views of their constituents. A true Democrat (or whatever party) is someone who represents the views of the party. The views of the party may be influenced by party candidates on behalf of their constituents, but those views are decided upon by a group of people that aren’t elected by a public ballot and have no obligation to democratic voters. If you don’t like the platform of the party, you’re supposed to go join a different party (but we’re kinda fucked with that right now). If you’re talking about who represents the views of the democratic party, it’s difficult to find someone who represents them better than Pelosi.
she’s more of a centrist parading around as a dem.
And that perfectly represents the party as a whole.
Sounds like you don’t know what a Dem is
The centers of both parties are functionally allies, the power structure of the Democratic party despises the kind of progressive politics AOC and Bernie do far more than the Republicans they claim to oppose even when those Republicans are literal out in the open fascists. Chuck Shumer is exhibit A and will become a historical touchstone for discussions about how neoliberalism always in the end sets up the conditions for fascism and then pathetically collapses in the crucial moment of resistance against fascism.
Fuck that, both parties need to go, how many times has the Democratic party laughed in the face of Bernie as they blatantly undermined him?
No, I treat Republicans as an existential threat, which means I also logically see the entrenched power structures of the Democrats that are happy to lose to Republicans rather than evolve, as an existential threat.
Pelosi is a Democrat through and through, AOC and Bernie are Democrats because they have no choice in the status quo.
The progressives need a build a new party before we destroy the existing ones.
Says who?
Common sense.
Weak response, provide evidence that trying to reform the Democratic party is a better strategy.
They will not change their strategy, the organization is structurally incapable of it, how much more proof do you need?
Maga fundamentally changed the Republican Party but you’re saying the progressives are unable to do the same?
Why wouldn’t they be able to?
Because they weren’t afraid of change before we are “ready for it” like you are, which is the only reason the tea party worked. They were willing to tear everything down if it wasn’t working, and that made the rest of the Republican party blink.
Your strategy is exactly the kind of political pushback people like Shumer and Pelosi prefer, because it is strategically ineffectual at threatening their power.
Anyone who wants to exist under a non-fascist government?
We are past that point already?
A fair point.
I would point, however, to that emphasizing the need to create a progressive party, rather than prioritizing the destruction of the now-castrated Dems.
The entrenched power structure is always going to narrativize a genuine alternative to the Democratic party as harsh toned leftists destroying things to destroy things, so if you are afraid of that in your rhetoric (even if you end up supporting more reform like policies in the end) you are already making it incredibly easy to be walked all over by people that resist all change.
No, the strategy is to go for the throat of the DNC and happily back off when they realize you aren’t messing around and give material concessions to the people they are supposed to represent. This is why the tea party was unfortunately successful, now is when the left does our version.
If that breaks the Democratic party in the process, that is their fault for building a house of cards indifferent to the suffering of people in the US.
So what? That does not negate the stated want.
The bi partisan police state and Military Industrial Complex existed before Trump ever took public office.
Americans need to stop saying the Democrats want universal healthcare. They don’t and they’ve made that clear numerous times.
Like when?
Obamacare, the multiple times in 2016, 2020, and 2024 when they were deciding on a platform and universal healthcare never made the cut. They’ve had plenty of opportunities to push it and they never do.
That’s because you’re political system is broken by lobbying. Fix that and you might start to see both parties make decisions for the people instead of the corporation’s and billionaires that give them both insane amounts of money. Money they need to stay elected.
There’s the two sides of the Democratic party. AOC (pictured) supports fixing that. Yet the DNC keeps nominating moderates who refuse to give more power to the working class.
That’s right, except without lobby both parties disappear instantly. My guess is social media ‘heroes’ would quickly take their place, same way it’s already happening in central and south america.
Thought you might find this helpful in case you haven’t seen it before: https://democrats.org/where-we-stand/party-platform/
You are awsome
I totally agree, although to be fair in this particular instance, it’s a reference to AOC herself. The Democrats who want universal healthcare are the voters.
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Anyone that has to hear “the two parties are not the same” is too stupid to change their tiny little mind and recognize it.
Sure, one “party” is fascist and the other “party” is collaborators. Lots of differences to point out there.
Yawn.
Yet another goon who hasn’t bothered looking up both party’s voting history or criminal conviction history.
Do your homework.
He did do his homework. He’s not saying this shit out of ignorance but out of malice. He’s a Russian shill.
You begin to recognize the usernames.
Boost’ user tagging feature has made my Lemmy experience so much better. The tag pops out so it’s the first thing I notice before even reading the reply so I know to prepare myself and not take it seriously if it’s tagged as a troll or whatever. Easier than remembering who said what in previous posts.
🤮 this got me to try it out and there’s banner ads at the bottom of every post
Voyager has tagging too, and it’s ad-free!
Oh, that’s awesome! It didn’t when I switched from it to boost, otherwise I would’ve stuck with that.
Ah, dunno about that, sorry. Been using it for a few years, since it was also a reddit app and I just paid for the ad free version
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I’m guessing you’re not a native English speaker?
No, I just misread the first time. Fair enough.
I once got a death threat here on lemmy for suggesting that democrats were better than Republicans. That was interesting to say the least
You’re not wrong. Apparently the truth stung someone pretty hard.
They have to live with the fact they didn’t vote as the next Hitler takes hold, it’s also the only thing their stupid little minds can use to go on without acknowledging their conscience that wants them to yeet themselves out a window.
They have to live with the fact they didn’t vote as the next Hitler takes hold,
They think Thalmann did nothing wrong, so if anything, they celebrate that they didn’t vote as the next Hitler takes hold.
Both parties are certainly not the same, however both parties have a lot of the same interests. The truth is establishment Democrats have very little personal reason to fight back against these insane right wing policies because they personally benefit from them; and that is the singular truth that makes our current political climate so dangerous.
While they don’t have any reason too fight back however, they also will not generally propose these policies. They just won’t block them, so the solution is simple, prevent these policies from being proposed.
However lots of people want to see the world in black and white and just want to conflate concepts like this with something that has no nuance to it like “both parties are the same” and blindly parrot that statement without stopping to analyze what it’s really talking about and that’s a huge issue since it disenfranchises more vulnerable people. I suspect blanket statements like this are likely a large contributor to the US’ low voter participation, and i wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of them originated from foreign influence.
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Can we stop putting AOC and Sanders as Democrats please. At least these two are vocal.
Sanders is not even a member of the Democratic Party.
AOC is an official representing the democratic party, and Sanders is a regestered independent
AOC is not a good representation of the democrats. Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Gavin Newsom are better reps for the party. With the things AOC values, it feels she only identifies as Democrat in order to be on the Democrat ballot. AOC has been touring with Bernie. Bernie doesn’t even identify with the Democratic Party, but still came dangerously close (according to the Dems) to being the elect instead of Biden back in 2019-2020. The Democratic Party did not like that. The dems want to keep the working class down. The republicans want to squash the working class and more into submission.
I think the people that align with the Democratic Party were feeling a lot of this between late 2019 - mid 2020.
Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Gavin Newsom
Obama being a proponent of universal healthcare back in 2008, Biden a supporter of the Green New Deal, and Newsom part of a push for universal healthcare in Cali?
I don’t mean to say that any of this is enough. I don’t mean to say that the Dems aren’t dragging their fucking feet and 10 years too late on every goddamn issue; I’m not saying that the system is working or that we don’t need a new system.
But anyone who says that the two parties are the same or indistinguishable in terms of results or ideals is selling a crock of fascist-flavored shit. Apathy and non-participation benefits conservatives.
You’re screaming into the void here on Lemmy. All we have are tankies and teenagers that want Amazon two-day shipping on their “RevolutionTM” and are throwing a crying temper tantrum that the majority of the American public don’t agree with them.
So they bitch about the Dems who are the only ones actually trying to solve the problem for not doing it fast enough while they themselves do literally nothing to solve any actual problems and giving the Republicans, the party that is actually causing all the problems, a complete free pass.
The tankies are the toddler throwing a tantrum on the floor of a toy store. The Dems are their mom who isn’t buying them the Xbox game they want and the Republicans are the store owners hiking up the price of the game to make it unaffordable to all but the extremely wealthy. Their little baby brains can only think to whine and cry and blame their mom because they have no understanding of the reality behind, well… anything really.
So they bitch about the Dems who are the only ones actually trying to solve the problem for not doing it fast enough while they themselves do literally nothing to solve any actual problems and giving the Republicans, the party that is actually causing all the problems, a complete free pass.
I’ve been starting to suspect that they give MAGA a free pass because MAGA is just too powerful and scary for them.
Take on the Democrats, you get tons of sweet internet clout. Take on MAGA, you might disappear and end up in a prison in El Salvador.
Why put all that risk into punching up, when you can punch horizontally and still pretend you’re a revolutionary.
This is very refreshing to read.
Thank you for your response. I don’t typically post comments on any social media because I feel it is not worth it. There is a movement growing in the USA rn, and most people on Social Media are not actively being a part of it. We can end the things that have happened. It will take time.
You’re trying to talk sense to people of an extremist ‘comply or die’ style ideology here. Proper leftists have empathy enough for the well-being of their fellow humans and the planet we live on to recognize that simply burning everything to the ground benefits nobody. What we have in this place for the most part are keyboard commandos who wouldn’t have the first clue what to do in the event of a full societical collapse.
If only the democrats actually listened to AOC and Sanders.
But they don’t.
“But what if we compromised with them and our donors, and then compromised with the Republicans, and then put on our shocked pikachu face when the Republicans don’t compromise with us in turn???”
Legit, the second half of the problem is related to our gerontocracy. These fucking dinosaurs are still acting like it’s the 1970s and 1980s, when they first came to power.
Oh I’m sure they’ll listen to them right up until the point where they find another member of the Clinton family that hasn’t had their turn yet.
Chelsea Clinton’s available! :/
Chelsea/Hunter 2028. Might as well just build the gas chambers now.
Nah, they’re going to run another candidate who can finally appeal to Republicans, one who has bipartisan experience, having run in the past on both sides of the aisle. Say hello to 2028 Democratic presidential nominee David Duke!
Alternatively they’ll give Hilary another crack at it, with Chelsea has her running mate.
“Clinton-Clinton 2028: How badly do you want the Fascists out?”
Yeah for sure AOC represent Democrats 😂😂😂. They are all behind her and sure will let her run for primary and win like they did with Bernie Sanders. LMAO
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How about repeatedly bringing up the flaws of First past the post voting every election cycle and then doing nothing to solve it in the blue states they control?
I can no longer believe it’s in good faith. These are people with law degrees who pretend to be unaware of why Bush won in 2000. If they don’t explicitly oppose FPTP by now, then they’re pissing on your leg and telling you it’s raining.
My city implemented ranked choice recently. Progress is being made. Just not as fast as you tankies want because you don’t seem to understand that moving something as large as the United States happens on the scale of decades not months.
Did Bernie not run in the primary? I remember him having his ass handed to him in my state.
Does nobody remember Biden and Warren splitting the Bernie vote or
IMHO it was more Warren splitting Sanders’ vote even though she knew she would lose. The establishment dems wanted Biden.
AOC and Bernie should just start their own party and drive the establishment democrats out if business.
I’m pushing for this every day. It’s our only way out of this.
What percentage of the American population are progressive? Please provide a reliable source for your information. And please don’t provide something nebulous and without meaning like “75% of Americans support random progressive policy”. Those polls show aggrement with a policy, not a desire to change current policy.
I don’t care how many people are progressive, at this point it’s the only thing i will vote for. I saw how the Democratic Party acted after losing, and i am talking about all of it, not just pathetic signs and admonishing people speaking truth to power. I will not vote for establishment again no matter what the options are.
I don’t care how many people are progressive, at this point it’s the only thing i will vote for.
Yeah, that’s about what I expect from Lemmy leftists.
More than you’d think are progressive. But, I’m not claiming we need a progressive party - anything left of center is better than what the Democrats offer.
This is the crux of it, American’s have shown us time and again they are centrist/center left at best. These folks are so trapped in their ideological bubbles that they cannot fathom their extreme outlier position, small wonder that there is so much accelerationist language of late.
Compromise is taboo and so any candidate that has agitated inside the system for change ends up verboten.Ok
https://www.dataforprogress.org/polling-the-left-agenda
https://www.levyinstitute.org/publications/trump-wins-while-americans-vote-for-progressive-policies/
https://www.citizen.org/news/progressive-policies-are-popular-policies/
https://yipinstitute.org/article/analyzing-popularity-of-progressive-views
While several moderate Democrats accused and blamed progressives like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for the loss of 12 seats in the House of Representatives and the Warnock/Ossoff ticket being the deciding factor for the fate of the Senate, all House Democratic candidates in swing districts who endorsed Medicare for All had won their races, with none of the incumbent Democrats who lost their reelection supporting it. In addition, only one of the 93 co-sponsors of the Green New Deal lost to their challenger. This brings up the question: Are progressive ideas actually popular? Did progressives actually win last year?
Throughout the campaigning process for the 2020 election, Republicans focused hard to smear and misrepresent their Democratic opponents using terminology like “socialism,” “radical,” and “defund the police” to define them. One would think that these more progressive policies only appeal to the younger generation of Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren supporters. But, newer research conducted reveals surprising results.
An Ipsos poll showed that, in 2020, 46% of Republicans and 72% of Democrats would support a universal basic income of $1000 per month (some may remember this being a distinctive characteristic during Andrew Yang’s candidacy). A study by Pew Research Center indicated that a majority of Americans, and especially lower class Republicans, agree with raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour. Even in the battleground state of Florida, which went to Donald Trump in 2020, passed this same measure on their ballot with 61% of voter support. On Election Day, Fox News aired results of their voter analysis exit poll. One finding was that 72% of participants either somewhat or strongly favor a government-run health care plan, with 29% in opposition. Another 72% of viewers responded that they are somewhat to very concerned about climate change’s effects, having 28% disagreeing. Finally, 70% favor increasing spending toward renewable energy, with 31% against it. Results to other questions summarized that a majority of respondents want the government to do more, think racism is a serious problem in the U.S., support a pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants, and want the Supreme Court’s decision in Roe v Wade to be left as is. A poll by Student Defense, the Defend Students Action Fund, and Data for Progress revealed that 67% of those who participated “support some form of widespread student loan forgiveness - whether it is universal, tied to income, or based on specific program eligibility,” with 58% of Republicans among that support (Forbes).
I agree. Both democrats and republicans pledge allegiance to capitalism above all else. This simply is not sustainable.
This is also why education and historical literacy is so important. If more people knew how that America is only successful because of (majority) socialist policies like the New Deal and Great Society then there will be more widespread support for a reinvigoration of them.
I think legacy media and centralized social media have dumbed down our populace to a point that they don’t even realize there is a way out. Everyone in the 99% stands to benefit from radical change.
Democrats are literally controlled-opposition
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Considering that Liberals are literally right wingers (Political Science 101) masquerading as leftists, yeah you are turds in every way.
We actually agree on something
Politics aside, I get irrationally angry whenever I see people wear masks in that manner. I immediately think they eat crayons in their past time. I know it is a judgemental thing, but holy shit was it a frustrating, daily sight during covid and it made Mr sometimes question why the fuck I even bothered doing things the right way.
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I mean, some people were definitely like that, but I also just saw a lot of people who clearly didn’t understand the concept of the mask. I can only speak for my own country of course, but over here the nay sayers were a very small, yet loud minority, while the vast majority of people did their best to wear the masks. Most of them just hadn’t recieved proper instructions on how to use it.
I was lucky that we have a family member who is a nurse, so in our household, we know how to use the masks correctly, and let me tell you - fucking nobody used the masks correctly. Not even the most vehement mask users who talked about the importance of masks did it correctly. I was shown how to do it by a professional and even I did it wrong multiple times because you just kinda forget when you’re busy, on the go or tired af after a long day, that you are under no circumstances supposed to touch the mask itself. The second you do, you have compromised the effect of the mask and you have contaminated your fingers.
Do you know how many times a day I saw people adjust their masks with their fingers, scratching their face underneath the mask, securing the mask over the nose, reusing the same mask over and over and not disinfect their hands at any point, but scratching and then pick items up at the store and put them down again?
I did it myself. A single mindless moment and you have compromised the effect of the mask. And don’t get me started on the well-meaning souls who decided to sow masks without a clue about filters or anything like that.
This is something I just couldn’t talk with people about during corona because everybody were fucking hysterical about covid. The smallest attempt to have a discussion was seen as suddenly I was an anti vaxxer and a conspiracy theorist, when all I ever said was that I didn’t think the masks worked as well as people thought they did. They definitely had a positive effect on stopping the spreading cobbled with the distancing and the washing of hands. All of that contributed positively to it. But my god. I couldn’t deal with people bearly wearing their masks properly (under the nose or even under the fucking chin, my dude) or reusing the same mask over and over. I knew most people didn’t do it on purpose, but it really grinded my friggin gears to see them whenever I was out shopping groceries. Especially early on when we still didn’t know how dangerous covid was and I was being super anal about using the masks correctly and super paranoid about catching it and passing it on to someone with a weak immune system. And then you walk past some old person with the mask under the nose one minute and a group of teens having the mask hanging around their chin for later use the next. I had colleagues who kept used masks in their pockets and pulled them out for a quick use whenever they had to run errands. Then back in the pocket it went.
But what can you do? People were just trying to live their lives and adjust to the changes and most of them did the best they could even if they completely missed the point of the masks. And I mean, you just can’t expect anyone to use the masks the way medical personal do. Especially not out in the wild where life is messy. So in that sense I kinda learned to let it go, but I still have this nam-like flashback everytime I see someone with a mask underneath their nose.
Haven’t seen that shit for so long and when I saw that picture I was back in the jungle, lol.
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Yeah I’m sorry. I always try to be short when I write and I always fail Dx you’re not obligated to read all that, my friend. It’s just me babbling about masks haha
Or when you asked them a question, and to hear better they pulled down their masks lol
AOC is progressive, not a neoliberal. Saying liberals want universal healthcare is a straight up LIE
Neoliberals are not typically liberals. You can be a progressive liberal
Source: am one
No shit. I am replying to the meme which implies democrats want universal healthcare - they dont.
You worded it strangely. Liberals and aoc want uhc
If liberals actually wanted uhc we’d have it by now. Instead they neutered Medicare/Medicaid because “if were nice to the republicans maybe they’ll be nice to us when theyre in power”. now look where we are.
Universal health care is antithetical to both market economies and economic freedom which are both core liberal principles. Liberals cannot actively support it without also confronting the inherent contradictions within liberal ideology.
Unless you’re using the term “liberal” in the US sense of ‘anybody “left” of fascism’ in which case you’re statistically correct, but mostly due to generalization.
Well how about this I DEFINATELY %100 do agree that capitalism has a fucking problem. I believe it makes more sense to regulate harshly and have a 50s style tax on the rich than to throw baby out with water. Im liberal in the sense that HUMAN RIGHTS must take precedent no matter what part of an economic shift we’re in
Liberals cannot actively support it without also confronting the inherent contradictions within liberal ideology.
Thank you, I couldn’t have asked for a better demonstration of this point. A healthcare system that is based on the free market but that is “regulat[ed] harshly and [with] a 50s style tax on the rich” is not universal healthcare!
If you can see the issues with healthcare and can understand why universal healthcare would be a necesarry improvement then how are you still advocating for a free market solution for anything?
That baby died a long time ago, and required required constant human rights violations to keep it alive in the first place. Getting rid of the bathwater won’t bring it back or make it require less cruelty to keep alive.
I never said I was against UHC? Where do I mention anything about free market anything? Free market doesnt do shit when monopolies are allowed to run rampant. I-am-pro-human-rights-above all. About the only thing I "agree with "on with capitalist is being pro personal property but only in the sense that the gov doesnt have a right to come and take your personal shit for no reason. That does not extend to businesses and monopolistic expanse of land ownership.
I think the confusion is that it actually implies AOC, who is a Democrat, wants universal healthcare - she does.
Based on social media I have no fucking clue what I am. But I do know I’d like universal Healthcare and the right for people not just to survive on their working wages. But to thrive. No one should have to struggle for basic necessities and a decent life.
Progressive just means a low ranking democrap.
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The democratic party doesnt want universal healthcare
And yet when the legislature arrives to give us free Healthcare the Democrats don’t pass it despite having a majority.
Both sides aren’t the same, but their choices produce the same results.
And yet when the legislature arrives to give us free Healthcare the Democrats don’t pass it despite having a majority.
Obamacare saved my life and was the product of immense effort at a time when the Dems were more conservative than they are today. Blue Dogs were wiped out in 2010 and 2012 because of that (correct) rage against them.
You can say what the Dems managed to do was not enough - and it’s not. Millions of people are not as lucky as me (though I suppose poverty is a strange kind of luck - poverty in a blue state, perhaps, more appropriately) and still suffer immensely under our utterly fucked healthcare system. But it’s not the same result as doing nothing - or worse, handing control over to the GOP. Millions like me owe a greatly improved quality of life, or our very lives, to the reforms passed.
If you have a plan to destroy the Dems and replace them all with left-wing progressives, and put demo charges on the base of our utterly fucked rat’s nest of a government structure, I’m not here to tell you not to. But I am here to tell you that both sides are not the same for millions of disadvantaged demographics, even if the Dems are not enough for those selfsame demographics.
That’s really the one big thing I can think of that they did get through.
It got like 80mil people health insurance which was great.
It was still a huge compromise from the free universal healthcare that was the original goal.
It’s worth noting that Obama did this by going around party leadership. Once he was in power he did not obey the DNC like other candidates have.
It’s worth noting that Obama did this by going around party leadership. Once he was in power he did not obey the DNC like other candidates have.
I mean, the president is party leadership. And Biden, an ardent party loyalist, is the only Dem president in the past 50 years which has been in lockstep with the wider party.
When i say “the party” i mean the privately ran organization who is legally allowed to choose whoever their canidate is, and doesn’t have to legally hold a fair primary election or any election at all.
Sure the president gets a temporary seat at the table, but the other DNC leaders do not want them to be in control.
The fact that Obama tried to push free healthcare made the DNC leadership furious, because that isn’t what he told them before the primaries. But because they were stuck with him they instead had other loyalist dems try to help Republicans block his policies and then enjoyed the popularity Obama was bringing to the party.
Sure there was a silver lining of sorts, but the ACA transferred more power and wealth to medical insurance companies than there was before, hastening our approach to where we are now. I’m sorry if I don’t give much credit to the medicine we were given to dull the pain, because it didnt fix the problem. In fact, since so many think it did help so much, we have ignored the problem so we could argue about whether the medicine is nice or bad or rude or evil or etc.
Wow a government that taxes you into oblivion for the War Pigs Somehow squeezes out a success. Every once in a while a blind squirrel finds a nut. You don’t have a mental process that thinks in terms of like a program. It could be argued that the United States is not even a democracy, given all of the methods that the rich make it so that our candidates that have our best interest are never able to be chosen. And it’s a mixture of people not understanding or knowing history with a sprinkling of illiteracy. that we continue to march down the road, choosing the same two parties over and over again, and living in a vacuum. Stuck in time. Repeating the same mistakes. The Yankees in whole both Democrat and Republican are some variation of fascist and relative to the rest of the world the left and right paradigm is more varied. America is a imperialist empire that employs fascist as useful idiots to do the bidding of the business owners and the capitalist class. Democrats just give you the impression that you have a choice. It’s a form of pacification. They themselves can see themselves as powerful and still have faith in the institution. And they themselves can also be alright people, but the ROLE or FUNCTION that they play in all this is just controlled opposition. The more you go down the rabbit hole of world history and American history, you start to see patterns, and really nothing has changed. Like fascism and racism and all these isms are just character traits of societies. But they are symptoms of exponential processes inside of containers that can no longer withstand the flux. That’s how you can have Nazi Jews. Not all Jews are Nazis, but Israelis in general, as a collective, are fascistic in nature. And there shouldn’t be really a debate about this, but a lot of people are ignorant about what it’s like in Israel and how the laws are written. To be honest it’s almost like me. I live in Yankee land. I’m not a fascist. I think I am a minority in my opinions, but there is still a significant amount of people that believe as I do. I mean I can relate to a israeli., who chooses not to be a fascist. It’s such a fucking mess. And at the root of it all, is that people just don’t take interest really in current affairs, in a serious, responsible manner. As a collective, we are very misinformed Population. The Yankee likes to make fun of North Korea, but I think of us like North Korea. Like a mixture of Disneyland and North Korea. You put those two together and I think that’s what it’s like to live in America. But if you never left the country, you don’t realize the rest of the people around the world live better lives. And like, I wouldn’t stay here if I had a choice now that I know more about the world. Like vote Democrat. No thank you. Buy the plain ticket, leave the country forever and never look back. That’s where I’m at.
I’m not going to read that until you learn how to use paragraphs 🤷♂️
There’s always conveniently a cohort of Dems that vote against party lines. Every. Time. Then they can shrug and say “welp, we tried”.
Two sides of the same capitalist shit sandwich.
This is because of red state Democrats like Manchin. Because every state gets two senators, there are more senators from red states than blue states. So Democrats have to capture more of the center to hey the majority in the Senate.
Both sides aren’t the same, but their choices produce the same results.
The last few weeks are clear evidence of the opposite.
Kids were still in cages during Biden. Prison slave population still highest history. Biden started the genocide and handed it over to trump. Biden deported more people than trump. Biden didn’t feel like codifing roe. No min wage discussions whatsoever. No universal healthcare. Harris wanted a stronger border than trump and bragged about it. Half of the US can’t even afford a 1 bedroom apartment under Biden and Trump alike.
The two parties exist to appease their corporate donors. Nothing they do is in your interests.
By the way, progressive measures passed in many states, even states that Trump won. People want progressive policy but neither party is willing to deliver. This is a feature, not a bug, of capitalism.
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Kids weren’t being forced back to labour in factories by the CEO of Amazon -see Florida.
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State Prison populations logarithmically dwarf federal prison populations, overwhelmingly Red States With Mississippi, Lousiana, Oklahoma, Idaho, Arizona, Texas, Georgia as the magnificent 7. All notoriously with a racial bias. No democrat president would have made the move or received the support necessary to dismantle private prisons at this point in history. What Trump is doing is not legal, you cannot rule by executive order, the judiciary are just all bought or neutered right now.
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Biden’s white house was about economic recovery because that was what was most important after Trump racked up the deficit. America enjoyed the lowest impact of inflation with the most economic regrowth of any country in the world after COVID. Things are significantly worse elsewhere. Inflation was going down under Biden, but social media gaslit the nation into believing it was way worse and once again that Trickle down economics would fix it.
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Crashing and burning the global economy was Big Tech’s goal, under Biden the judiciary ordered Alphabet to break up Google’s monopoly. It was just too late to happen at that point. No other government gave enough of a shit about our personal privacy and freedom to attempt to break the single largest corporate spy network in the history of existence. The democrats didn’t do everything we wanted them to, that doesn’t mean they didn’t make some very important and historically significant moves.
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There was no presidential immunity until the very end of Biden’s presidency at which point he was in noticeable mental decline and there was no supreme court stacked in his favour.
It’s not black and white, is all I’m saying. The constant self-criticism is what splits the Democratic party, reduces the turnout and allowed corporatism the opening to advantage themselves. We’re lucky Trump still has the energy to rule without having the mental faculties to let others call all the shots. Sometimes, better than literal fascists is enough.
I respect you for doing it, but the .ml at the end of their name really just means you’re wasting your effort.
None the less, good on you for fighting the good fight. I’m sick and tired of people pushing powerlessness and apathy under the guise of good will.
I don’t care to convince them. Every opportunity we have to counter the false narratives meant to divide the working class, is an opportunity for you, myself and everyone else provide our comrades who have not yet woken up to the programming the ability to:
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Recognise agents, bad actors and bots.
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Give them the tools to counter them and drive home the message of unity. We need to stop playing party politics and realise the struggle has always been up vs down, left vs right is just how the owners of our media push us against eachother.
Thank you for contributing to the wider conversation.
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Pushing powerlessness? What are you doing to stop this? I’m with DSA and fighting IRL to stop this. Have you organized any protests? Have you phone banked anybody? Have you distributed literature? Have you actually gone out and talked with real human beings about what struggles they are feeling?
Have you run for local office? That’s the only thing you can do that will actually change anything.
lol no direct action is a thing
Not American, and yes to most of that.
The “both sides” argument is a dishonest one aimed at making people feel powerless. It can fuck right off.
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Oh no, I angered the tankies.
Both parties suck. The world would not be experiencing economic bipolarism, and we would not be spreading memes about American born citizens rotting in prisons in El Salvador just to cope had Trump lost the election. The two parties are not the same.
Ohhhhh, the “T” word. Ez block for this uninformed and ignorant troll.
“That person has different opinions from me, such an obvious troll!”
Fair though, I would troll the shit out of tankies at every opportunity I have the energy for. Fucking .ml.
It really is a thought-terminating cliché. You guys were talking about the actual subject before each other.
Not the same results exactly, more that the dems enable the republicans by not pushing back, but both are far below the standard we should accept.
MTG is just there for the lols. She was rich before she got elected and gotten even richer since. She’a there to pass out the matches and watch the world burn
I’m so fucking tired of this argument.
It’s the same fucking bullshit loop every goddamned time. Somebody will say that the two parties are “the same” clearly meaning "the same in [this] particular sense, and then the pedantic assholes will all come swooping in and start nattering on about how that’s completely wrong because they’re not absolutely 100% identical.
Here’s a fucking news flash for all you binaristic pinheads - there are more than two possibilities. We aren’t just limited to “they’re 100% the same” and “they’re not the same at all.” It’s not only possible but certain fact that they ARE the same in many, many ways, and the fact that they’re not the same in ALL ways doesn’t change that.
Anyone who can’t envision more than two diametrically opposed possibilities is a fucking moron, and I’m sick and tired of this argument being driven by fucking morons.
Agreed.
The notion of “both sides are the same” is a leftist critique that points out how both parties were long ago bought out and captured by special interests. The people hammering on this idea are especially critical at how, during the 2024 election, when the Democratic establishment was faced with a choice between bowing down to Israel and mitigating full-blown fascism, they chose to bow down to to Israel, commit genocide, and embarrassingly hand yet another win to Trump. All for them sweet AIPAC dollars.
Sure, AOC, the democrat’s shining star of progressivism, has different policy positions than MTG, of the right’s most outward and frothing fascists, but talk about a low bar… It’s akin to saying “how can you say both parties are the exact same when one has a donkey mascot and one has an elephant? A donkey is not the same as an elephant - check and mate, tankie”
Weaselly bullshit.
“Both sides are the same” isn’t some fucking Leftist code that actually means some other thing. You meant what you goddamn said.
If they are “the same in this particular sense” then use that language instead. In no other context do people use the phrase “these are the same” meaning “these have something in common.” I wouldn’t defend the phrase “Galas and Fijis are the same” because of their similarities any more or less than if I were to compare apples and oranges. I’d say they’re both apples or they’re both fruit or any number of specific descriptors that they actually share.
It seems to me that if people are using this language as you suggest then they should communicate more clearly, or, more likely, this isn’t what they mean.
Example:
“Republicans are corrupt weasels.”
“Democrats are the same.”
I see only three options there. Either:
- You understand and admit that they mean “the same” in the sense of “also corrupt weasels.”
- You’re a liar
- You’re a moron.
I think it’s also selfishness. These dumbasses are still comfortable in life and so refuse to take off their blinders.
Nowhere in history have things gotten better by simply waiting.
But because things aren’t bad for them it’s not a problem.
The ole “First They Came” in action.
Agreed. Their progressive Renaissance is always just one presidency away, and they will perpetually sacrifice however many Palestinians it takes to bide themselves time.
In other words, they will keep throwing bodies into the blood machine that is the American political experiment in hopes of a progressive renewal that will never happen. There is no red line for them - that is, a point where they’d consider “damn, we are fucking shit up heavy for the whole world, and we have a duty to tear ourselves down”.
It can be - certainly.
One of the basic dynamics of partisan politics, and one of the main reasons that parties decline, is that people wear a party label as a substitute for more meaningful action.
In this case, people who want to project an image of progressivism without actually doing anything practical to advance the cause adopt (or adopted - more so in the past) the “Democrat” label as a way to signal their progressivism. The fact that they wear the label is then folded into their self -image - they can be proud that they’re progressive, because after all, they’re Democrats, which proves it.
One problem though is that that only works as long as the Democrats are seen to be progressive. If they’re no longer seen that way, then by extension the party faithful are themselves no longer progressive either.
So effectively, a criticism of the party is a criticism of the individual, so they have a vested interest in defending the party from criticism.
I think it’s also selfishness. These dumbasses are still comfortable in life and so refuse to take off their blinders.
lol. lmao.
Nowhere in history have things gotten better by simply waiting.
Surprisingly, nowhere in history have things gotten better by refusing to do the bare minimum of preventing authoritarians from coming into power because you want to cosplay revolution, and then failing to even cosplay revolution after the authoritarians come in.
Lord.
Dude, let them feel great for voting for the lesser evil. It’s not like they are not making any difference in the long run. At least they are contributing to perpetuate this historical tradition of bipartisan dominance.
In a vacuum like this using the best and worst (dumbest?) example from each party.
But both parties as a whole serve the interest of capital. Their methods might be different. Their indirect/direct use of violence might be different. But they serve the same people with the same interest. AOC and Bernie are even saying that now. They’ve been criticizing the democratic party at all of their events.
Can the liberals stop pretending we can vote our way out of facism and please fucking join us on the left. Fucking please.
Fascism is here. Due process is gone. First amendment is gone. If you’re waiting to vote again you’re no different than someone in Russia thinking they can vote Putin out of power.
Grab a pitchfork (metaphorically speaking) and get organized.
Join PSL or DSA or anyone in your area resisting ICE. Now. Do it now.
Edit: For every downvote please comment with a different organization resisting ICE and organizing locally. Because if it’s just criticism of the groups that ARE resisting it’s not helping. Give people an alternative. I would LOVE people just listing groups that are resisting ICE in your area or nationally. Because that’s all I want.
Join PSL
Ah yes, “Palestinian genocide is bad but Ukrainian genocide is good”
Yeah when ICE is taking away my neighbors I always make sure to vet my resistance groups to make sure they have my same exact view on a conflict between two oligarch controlled nations. /s
I don’t agree with Anarchist groups politically. But I sure as hell will stand in solidarity with them against fascism. If you sit by looking for the “politically pure” form of resistance to fascism you will always sit on a “holier than thou” fence of Liberalism.
I don’t agree with PSL or DSA on everything. But what I do agree with is resisting ICE and fascism.
Are you doing something? Because maybe just talk to someone from PSL or DSA and actually just get info from the actual organizer’s. Not some sweaty dude on Twitter.
Just go talk to someone. But don’t just lie about an entire organization of people in a reddit comment and feel ok with watching more and more people getting black bagged.
I don’t care if it’s PSL, DSA, or your local anarchist bike gang. Just find something you can help with and resist. Stop making excuses because some sweaty Trotskyist like to be edgy on your timeline. Go outside.
When we resist fascism we can talk about the different degrees of being a leftist. But holy fuck this is not the time to do nothing.
Yeah when ICE is taking away my neighbors I always make sure to vet my resistance groups to make sure they have my same exact view on a conflict between two oligarch controlled nations. /s
Thanks for proving the point that you don’t give a shit about Ukrainian genocide.
But I sure as hell will stand in solidarity with them against fascism. If you sit by looking for the “politically pure” form of resistance to fascism you will always sit on a “holier than thou” fence of Liberalism.
God. The irony.
When we warned you that ICE was going to end up empowered by a Trump regime, what you lot said was “Liberals are too impure!”
Now you want infinite solidarity, when you were willing to offer none.
Thanks but no thanks, I’ll resist with a group that isn’t pro-genocide. Isn’t that, after all, what you lot were so insistent on?
Unlike you lot, though, if it comes down to me having a choice only between one of your shithead pro-genocide groups or the fascists, I will bite the bullet and support you.
But don’t expect me to come running to support putting bullets in the heads of Ukrainian civilians and kidnapping hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian children because “Ukraine’s government is too right-wing, so it doesn’t matter!” Unless utter pro-genocide imperialist-supporting minority-murdering cunts like the PSL are the only realistic game in town, you’re getting 0 support from me.
I don’t care if it’s PSL, DSA, or your local anarchist bike gang. Just find something you can help with and resist. Stop making excuses because some sweaty Trotskyist like to be edgy on your timeline. Go outside.
What’s the PSL doing, again, other than posturing?
When we resist fascism we can talk about the different degrees of being a leftist. But holy fuck this is not the time to do nothing.
No, apparently the time to do nothing was when preventing fascism was at its easiest. Now that fascism has been handed all levers of power, we must resist, in suitably non-specific ways.
This is the response of someone with a false comfort in thinking they’ll come for you last. I said my peace.
If you’re not doing anything on the ground to resist ICE then you should. That’s my point.
I’m not gonna argue anything more than that. Name me an organization resisting ICE that you would advocate for. I’d love to list more names in the future. What organization can I list that doesn’t get labeled as a “Tankie” of “Muslim Terrorist” organization from you?
Please. Please give me a group I can list for people like you to go outside?
Please give people reading this comment thread an alternative. Please. Because otherwise your criticism helps no one.
I don’t care if it’s PSL, DSA, or a Harley Davidson motorcycle gang. If you’re not advocating FOR some form of resistance and only criticizing the ones that exist. You are supporting ICE in your inaction while asking others to be inactive as well.
This is the response of someone with a false comfort in thinking they’ll come for you last.
lmao
I’m not gonna argue anything more than that.
Clearly you did, though. You preferred to argue that Ukrainian genocide doesn’t matter because Ukraine is ‘oligarch controlled’. Presumably Palestinian genocide doesn’t matter since Hamas is also ‘oligarch controlled’. You also said that the position of a resistance group on genocide doesn’t matter - presumably this means you’re willing to unite with Zionists against American fascism? Or is solidarity only mandatory when it’s about ignoring the genocides you support?
Please. Please give me a group I can list for people like you to go outside?
I’m involved in local groups. They’re a bunch of ‘shitlibs’ to you lot, no doubt, but considering your primary form of praxis is ensuring that fascists get elected wherever and whenever you can, I’m not sure that your opinions really count for much.
List the organizations please. People would benefit from that. That’s all I’m trying to do in this comment thread. Im not gonna engage in your derailment and false comparisons.
Your criticism was of PSL. And my point is that people should go organize and actually learn from the people in these organizations. Your comment only serves to keep people from organizing. It doesn’t give an alternative. Give an alternative.
List the organizations please.
Unless I wanted to dox my location, that’d be unwise. I can, however, recommend your local scawwy Dem clubs for resources, as well as your local ACLU chapter for how to get involved in ways that are meaningful, even if no one throws a molotov cocktail (or pretends that they will, eventually, someday). And maybe you’ll meet up with folks you can make serious plans with in the process.
Or you can LARP and do nothing of substance to people who actually need your help in this trying time - legal, economic, and medical resources.
That’s all I’m trying to do in this comment thread. Im not gonna engage in your derailment and false comparisons.
Yeah, that’s what I thought. Your only conception of ‘solidarity’ is ‘everyone agrees with me and no one dissents; otherwise, I’ll support fascists’, and ‘Everything I say is objectively correct; I have no obligation to acknowledge anyone else’s viewpoint’.
But hey, at least you can continue being utterly ineffective just like the past 70 years of leftists in this country. Maybe, if we ever emerge from this fascist hellscape, you can kneecap the next leftist candidate that’s put forward for being insufficiently pure and murder a few million more minorities in the process. After all, they matter less than your need to feel pure, right?
That’s exactly the problem. I hate the Democrats as much as the Republicans, but the DSA is so full of tankies I want nothing to do with them either. There is literally no party in this country for people like me.
PSL is full of tankies. DSA, at least in my experience, is filled with idealists who don’t seem to connect ‘results’ with ‘actions’, but their heart is generally in the right place.
Their head, on the other hand, can lead them to bizarre choices like “Unendorsing AOC for being insufficiently pro-Palestine”
Her and Bernie have been insufficiently pro Palestine. To the degree of negligible support of the genocide. To the point of distancing themselves from Ilhan Omar. I think they rightfully know they made a mistake in an attempt to be strategic though. Which they are backtracking on now.
The reason these organizations (DSA/PSL) exist is to move politics to the left. If you criticize them for every attempt to do so. You are literally just contributing to the Ratchet Effect of US politics. That type of milk toast politics from “the left” in the democratic party did not prevent us from getting to where we are today.
The Democrats did everything to do exactly what you are advocating for and surprise surprise we are here in full out fascism today. Maybe try to listen to those a bit to the left of you. We literally warned that this centrist politics would end this way.
But somehow we’re being blamed for it. Even though at every turn the Democrats prevented Palestinian voices and ran on “building the wall”.
The reason these organizations (DSA/PSL) exist is to move politics to the left. If you criticize them for every attempt to do so. You are literally just contributing to the Ratchet Effect of US politics. That type of milk toast politics from “the left” in the democratic party did not prevent us from getting to where we are today.
Ah yes, moving politics to the left will really be served by turning on one of the leftmost and most pro-Palestine politicians currently in Congress.
The leftist urge to sabotage the left for being insufficiently left seems to be timeless. Keep putting fascists in power, I guess. It’s not like I can stop you. God knows I tried.
The Democrats did everything to do exactly what you are advocating for and surprise surprise we are here in full out fascism today. Maybe try to listen to those a bit to the left of you. We literally warned that this centrist politics would end this way.
What am I advocating for, again?
Keep accusing everyone who doesn’t think that electing fascists is left praxis of being neolibs. It’s all you lot have at this point.
Edit: For every downvote please comment with a different organization resisting ICE and organizing locally. Because if it’s just criticism of the groups that ARE resisting it’s not helping. Give people an alternative. I would LOVE people just listing groups that are resisting ICE in your area or nationally. Because that’s all I want.
They can’t and won’t. Thought terminating cliche to deflect from the idea that electoralism isn’t good enough. We can’t vote our way out of this, but the rich want us to think that way. Brainwashed masses think Trump will let himself out of office beyond a casket.
Weird how every time someone suggests doing something outside of filling bubbles on paper every 2/4 years, it’s an evil act. But mass murder, prison-industrial complex, the normalized mass poverty of everyone is justified and accepted.
