reminder that the world did not enjoy it the last time Europeans were super powerful
Yeah, they all hated each other and their internal beer hall brawl spilled out over the borders. It wasn’t that Europe was any kind of united force. Maybe it’s time. We’re fucked in the US, now.
Though I gotta admit it’s ironic AF that the Allies set up Germany with a far better constitution/Grundgesezt and government framework than our own Constitution which ended up essentially frozen because politics have gotten so bad that opening it up would have probably destroyed whatever good remained in it thanks to talibangelicals and corporate money.
I think they were talking about colonialism, not WW2
Ah, yeah that was a bad time for the rest of the world too.
Europe is the biggest provider of independence days !
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Eh, power vacuums don’t last. You’re basically just asking for a Somalia situation where there’s n small powers continuously at war.
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World federation, superpowers, small powers. As far as I can tell it’s just a question of how big the blocs are. I don’t see how you move laterally to that continuum in any lasting way; humans are going to act like humans.
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I didn’t excuse anything. We’re shit. But, it’s the way things are.
Although, come to think of it, we’d probably just elect a world government if we weren’t shit anyway. Just to coordinate things as we’re being understanding and reasonable with each other.
In my uninformed understanding of humans and their history, unifications happen only in the face of crises and threats (and far from all the time, clearly). Maybe–hopefully–the world eventually makes common cause in order to stabilise the world as things spiral out of control in a few decades, but right now our species appears more concerned about whom gets to dictate what and how humans should live and behave like.
A unified world power, for instance through a competent UN that is achieved through diplomacy sound pretty okay.
Not even most Europeans.
But Europeans loved it
Europe is not the Germans.
This time you’ll get the Vikings, the Romans, the Conquistadors, the Spartans and the people who ruled the world by the cunning use of flags all teamed together.
The British imperialists genocided more people throughout their history than the Germans. Just that the Brits took their time with it. The French, Spanish, Portuguese, Belgians, Dutch and Italians also have many million skeletons in their closet and the French massacred millions of people trying to gain independence after World War 2.
If you go to any place in the world outside of Europe there is a good chance that Europeans committed a massacre there to steal land and resources at some point in the past few hundred years.
Europe is not the Germans.
The English ran laps around the Germans in terms of human attrocity for centuries.
The French weren’t far behind.
Hey, don’t forget Belgium. They didn’t have much, but it’s quality over quantity!
Power corrupts. No single country should be a global superpower
That’s fine, Europe is several countries.
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It’s a thin line indeed. Aren’t the countries in the UK closer to being actual countries than the US states?
Not really. All American States have the same level of inherent sovereignty. There are also a lot of federal programs that rely the individual states performing the work. States also maintain their own militaries under partial or complete state control.
In contrast, UK country sovereignty is a mixed bag, with the largest country in the UK without any devolved powers.
The US generally views American state sovereignty more in line with EU country sovereignty.
You cannot compare the US’ setup to Europe’s. One is a nation that is still incredibly young and was sliced up like a cake for several territories that still are relatively homogenous in culture.
The other is a continent consisting of countries with very diverse cultures and thousands of years of history, who made a union to collaborate on certain political issues.
The two are not even close to being the same. Not even close.
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The line is when all the countries agree to become one big country. Which will never happen in Europe. The US is different as it never got to be a bunch of individual countries with centuries long history (if we ignore the native americans’ old territories) before becoming the US. That development happened simultaneously while the country and its rules were formed. The concept of country was already well known at the time too, while Europe, like most of the world, figured that shit out slowly and over centuries.
This is why Europe will never become one country. The history is too ancient and the cultures run too deep. There is no way that I as a Dane would agree to become a citizen of United Europe where I lose my identity and history as a Dane and now have to build some new identity with other Europeans. We have many things in common, but we are not the same. The Soviet Union already experimented with this stuff, and it didn’t work out because the countries it forced to become part of a unified nation with the same identity, didn’t agree to it. It was forced and it was damaging to these countries’ identities.
I do not know a single European who would want to become one country and none of us would agree that the European Union’s setup is in any way similar to the US. It is not the same.
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Respectfully, I disagree with your reasoning. At no point have I said European countries want nothing to do with one another, just that we want to keep our own identity and sovereignty.
You are making a bunch of assumptions while completely ignoring the fact that European countries have the EU.
We are not isolationist nor are we xenophobic. We just want to keep our countries as they are.
It’s kinda like accusing someone of being anti apartment complex if they say no to move out of their family home that they have lived in for generations, and get an apartment in the complex instead. “Oh, maybe you’re racist because there might be people of different ethnicities in the complex? Or maybe you just hate having neighbours and want to isolate yourself from everybody in your silly little house?”
Or maybe I just have a greater emotional attachment to the house that was built by my great grandfather and I feel more at home in the house I have upkept and renovated myself than some apartment complex where every apartment has the same layout and there are rules as to how much I can modify mine.
Doesn’t mean that apartment complexes are a bad thing. Not at all. But if you already have a house with a garden that is yours and that you have a history with, why on earth would you want to give that up for an apartment in a complex that you don’t have any attachment to?
The only reason something like the US has worked out is because people willingly agreed to the setup and willingly left their old countries to build up something new.
Had the native Americans had the means to defend their lands, then I’m sure there would have been no US and instead a continent with old, independent countries that would hold on to their own traditions and cultures. There may have been a union similar to the EU, but that is not the same as them agreeing to become one big country. That is just collaboration and trying to have some agreements in place that ensures peace and trade between nations. The exact opposite of isolationism and xenophobia.
On the contrary, periods of imperial hegemony have been some of the more stable and peaceful episodes of human history. One of them is ending right now.
Yeah. People like to complain about American warmongering, but the period between World Wars I and II was orders of magnitude more deadly.
The stability isn’t much consolation to the slaves who die under empires
That’s fair. But history is an uninterrupted succession of empires. Good ones, bad ones, middling ones. It’s the human condition. The USA was an empire founded by enlightenment libertarians, so I’d say there’s a fair chance we’re going to look back on it fondly. Similarly, the EU, if ever it could pull itself together, has the potential to be as good an empire as we’ll ever get. IMO.
The USA was founded by slave owners and for a good chunk of its history anyone other than white male landowners were second-class citizens (and de facto still are). There are no good empires.
The human condition is malleable. A better world is possible. Indeed, sometimes it peaks out from the raging waters. Paradises built in hell, like Barcelona during the Civil War, prosper for a time and flounder. To believe that we cannot make something beautiful is to lack imagination.
The only way to enforce that, is to be a global superpower
EU already absorbed Switzerland in this pic despite them not wanting it, so there’s that.
Undid Brexit too already
No Iceland either 😔
Or Canada.
What? That hasn’t happened yet? Oh, sorry. That’s the problem with being from the, er, can’t say. Temporal prime directive and all that.
Switzerland is 100% dependent on the EU.
That’s not true.
They are completely landlocked by the EU and their Airspace.
Also most of their imports/exports go there.
They don’t even farm enough to sustain themselves. So yes, obviously it’s true
Landlocked does not mean dependent.
They also are not completely dependent which 100% means.
Last time I looked into imports and exports of countries Switserland was around 50-60%.
Of course it does mean that.
If the EU wants, they can fuck up Switzerland quite badly.
All they have to do is to close the borders and airspace.
The claim was “100% dependent” which is extremely incorrect.
Not a single country in the world is 100% dependent.
Furthermore, the threat of an attack does not imply dependence.
That phrasing was obviously hyperbole, since 100% dependence isn’t even a well-defined statement (you can not assign a simple percentage to degree of dependence). Using it as a point to argue against is misguided at best, disingenuous at worst. You should read it as “it is definitely dependent [to a high degree]” rather than “it is entirely dependent”.
The top US export is oil.
If you want to do something, wean yourself off oil. Big push for solar, wind, and anything else that doesn’t rely on digging up bits of dinosaurs.
Electric vehicles, public transport, bikes, walking.
And as an added bonus, the world gets a little cleaner. Might be important, you know.
> In 2023, renewable energy represented 24.5% of energy consumed in the EU, up from 23.0% in 2022.
They’re working on it a lot faster than (most of) the rest of the world!
In 2022, renewable energy sources contributed 31% of the electricity used in Texas. Fucking Texas.
Get those numbers up. Those are rookie numbers.
The insane thing is that renewables has been increasingly more cost efficient and more ROI than fossils for a long time, especially in places like Texas. Wind and sun for days. Investments in tech and production pay off big time, and obviously keep paying off long-term.
It is just oil subsidies and profiteering holding almost all of society back for decades. But things can change.
One of the ironies of the Texas electricity grid - ERCOT - is how it accidentally created huge incentives for new solar and wind energy by trying to prop up the natural gas markets.
ERCOT operates via an auction system, wherein the electricity carriers put in bids for GWhs and producers meet those bids. When demand is low, electricity is very cheap - $10-25 MWh. But it rise rapidly during a heat wave, peaking at $3000 MWh in some instances. Gas plants don’t have any incentive to sell onto the grid at this point, so they turn themselves off until the price rises. But when a bunch of gas plants operate as a cartel, they can coordinate when they release electricity and drive up the price.
The problem is that the auction price is set on the last GWh sold but it applies to the entire sale of energy for the auction cycle. So if you’re selling continuously across the day, you can accidentally trip into a ahem windfall when gas producers surge the price.
Because green producers can’t really control how much they put out onto the grid, they’re at the mercy of the market. But if they know, in advance, that the gas companies are going to fuck with things, they can anticipate enormous profits during these strategic moments. And because wind/solar don’t need a supply chain like gas does, you can just keep building and building and building wherever you find opportune spots for harvesting (which Texas has in spades).
So the gas companies inadvertently kicked off a green energy boom by their periodic price spike scheme.
Renewable energy development being rapidly accelerated by gas companies price gouging with artificial scarcity… thereby causing Texas to move toward a post-scarcity energy economy… magnificent. What a strange world.
Don’t worry Texas is going to fix that. They’re getting ready to pass a bunch of laws that limit renewable energy usage in Texas.
They’ve been making a lot of threats. But there’s a ton of money in renewables, too. It’s a hard lift
It’s way more than just threats. They’re already passing legislation.
https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/04/16/texas-senate-passes-anti-solar-wind-bill/
The Senate passes a lot of bugnuts bills. Watch the House calendar if you want to see what has a chance of actually passing. It took Abbott nearly a decade to get his watered down voucher bill through, in large part because the calendars committee guy hated the idea and would book the legislation at the tail of every session.
This is what I always have to bring up when people go “bUt cHInA!”. So what? Energy independence is valuable and should be pushed for.
The almighty Nordic cock and balls
Norway should really check a doctor
Dang! Cannot unsee anymore
I can’t unsee Putin screaming at Poland at the balcans, seeing both goes together quite nicely
Why is the forsaken UK still on the map ?
'cause we know this relationship has its ups and downs but isn’t over yet
Right, like the UK is a sibling that you hated growing up, but as adults it’s not so bad and you know you’re going to be friends again once they go through their binge drinking phase.
Data from the general population https://github.com/twosheds2/wiki-eugraph
Still too close. The mistake of Brexit was taking such an important decision based on a slim majority, you need at least an absolute majority, 66%.
I would put it more that there should have been an agreement on what Brexit would be pursued. The pro-Brexit camp promoted all forms of Brexit while there wasn’t a good idea on how Brexit would be implemented.
The UK still hasn’t solved the trilemma.
Interesting. Are those poll results sampled amongst the general population, or something more specific like from the parliament ?
Not only EU beurocrats are slow to process informations 😖
Our island is full of idiots but I swear we can make this up to you
The continent is full of idiots too. Their are no reasons for us to feel superior about this on this side of the pond.
France, Germany and Italy are giving it a good go too. I think our position on Ukraine has made the UK a lot of friends in Europe. That and voting out the Tories.
Switzerland and Liechtenstein are also not member states, and Estonia’s islands are not shown.
Scotland has islands on this map, but in a really weird way: all of the five biggest ones are missing, and I’m 95% sure that one of the two depicted is actually a peninsula that the map has chopped off from the mainland
Alternatively we can just assume Norway took the islands back
They bothered to remove the non-EU Balkan states and Norway, but filled up Switzerland. This map is just terrible.
Waiting for the George Costanza move
Weird map. The non-Union Balkan states and Norway are cut out, but Switzerland is filled in.
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fuk switzerland, free riding mfers
We have too many traitors like Orban in the EU. The work against us.
Economically and culturally, Europe is already a superpower. Militarily it isn’t, and maybe that’s not a terrible thing. Politically, it just seems to have a bias for moving slowly and by consensus, although it responded quickly to COVID and the assault on Ukraine, so it can do what’s needed?
Militarily it isn’t
Tell that to Libya, French colonies, etc.
Europe still has more than enough military to continue murdering people with darker skin.
Unite, but first, launch Orban into space, one-way-ticket kind-of way.
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The inefficiency of democracy is not a flaw, it’s a fundamental feature
I would say it is more of a tradeoff. Being able to quickly make decisions is nice. But I rather have a strong and democratic parliament than a president as powerful as a medieval monarch.
Double-edged sword, as it were.
I recognise you’re just expressing frustration towards current affairs – a frustration I often share, but:
Decisions require a mandate and the reason the EU has problems making decisions about some things is that it wasn’t designed to address them in the first place.
It’s simply a slightly over-grown trading union with occasional federalist aspirations.
Responding to tariffs - fast and coordinated.
Responding to external military threats - scattered and complicated.
Tap for spoiler
As a sidenote: According to John Bolton Trump, at least during his first term, was completely oblivious to how the European Union worked and was somehow also under the impression that Juncker, then president of the European Commission, got to decide the NATO budget. Crazy, right?
That’s why the EU’s response to defense was based on financial instruments.
To become a “superpower” and/or make quick decisions regarding e.g. military threats, it would need to actually become a state-like entity and begin building several bureaucratic arms it currently lacks which doesn’t usually happen overnight. Not to mention establishing actual policies.
Before we get to that stage though, a consensus between member states needs to be formed and all manner of legal documents drafted. Centralising power means less independence for member states which is usually a hard sell. It would likely also require member states to alter their constitutions which could be an incredibly slow process even without resistance from all the respective governments. Not to mention the fact that a popular vote in all member states might be a good idea democracy-wise.
I’m not saying necessarily it’s something we shouldn’t pursue and hey, under extraordinary circumstances even bureaucracy can move quickly but it is a huge deal and moving quickly could also mean skirting around established democratic principles. (Actually iirc European bureaucracy is generally quite efficient as is –contrary to popular belief)
I guess I wrote this in the hopes of fighting disillusionment even though it’s not the core message here. We’ll do what we have to and I’m positive we’ll get to wherever we need to be in order to survive and thrive in this century. It will require patience, nerve and active participation from all of us though.
Last thing I want us to become is like the folks over in the States claiming it’s all already over. (A minority, I hope)
Sorry for the wall of text, I guess I had some stuff pent up.
One thing I remember from the Brexit “debate” was that many viewed the prospect of the EU having an army as a terrible thing that couldn’t be allowed.
“It’s the Germans wanting to re-militarize under a different flag”
Fast-forward 6 years and Russia invaded Ukraine and the mood has certainly shifted on that one.
“Come on Germany. Get those factories going.”
True.
Maybe they need to appoint someone to be in charge, who can make decisions and really get things done.
I like a democratic parliament more. Otherwise we may have a Trump in Europe. I don’t want a singe person as powerful as a medieval monarch to decide over about half a billion people.
Otherwise we may have a Trump in Europe.
You have at least two, and arguably more, right now. Historically you’ve had some real fucking doozies too, people that make Trump look like a school child.
I don’t want a singe person as powerful as a medieval monarch to decide over about half a billion people.
That’s what you’ll get eventually.
Cant tell if youre being sarcastic or not
Always
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Sadly a lot of MEPs are in cahoots with Russia and hell bent on destroying the EU.
Cahoots is a strong word. They’re all ethnic nationalists who sympathize with the wave of anti-Muslim hysteria echoing through the continent.
But when push comes to shove, they’ll start shooting at one another over the border happily enough.
No, it isn’t a strong word at all. They are literally being paid by Putin. They exploit racism and bigotry, right wing populism, in their campaigns, but they aren’t necessarily doing that out of personal conviction.
At least for the Dutch alt-right party Forum voor Democratie there’s definite proof that they get money from Russia
Henk Otten is a multi millionaire who made his mint as an apparatchik of Dutch finance capital. I’m sure you can draw lines back to a dozen different countries in the region, but these calls are coming from inside the house.
Might as well claim Jaime Diamon or David Solomon is a Russian foreign agent.
or they just like money and power and ride the racism wave
Part of the problem is that - between mass media and the industrial exploitation of foreign workers - there’s enormous profit to be made in bigoted social policies.
The money feeds the media cycle. The media cycle generates economic growth for misery profiteers. You can blame this on The Russians if you like, as United Russia has cemented itself in the foundation of this cycle of misery. But (until very recently and even then still kinda) they’re bound up in the same web of systematized ethnic-nationalism as their neighbors.
The Saudis, the Turks, the Italians, the Israelis… vast economic empires are predicated on the profitability of hate.
I
generallyagree yes. I would go so far as to say that most people in politics be them conservative like or democrat like are in politics for the seat. Sure their perspective may vaguely align with their party but most will jump ships without reservations if their seat is in jeopardy. The very few who are in really to defend their ideals or democracy, it is harder for them to go far if their ideals don’t align well with power and deception both of which are currently entrenched in politics in many countries like Russia, Turkey, USA etc etc. And you said yourself actors with money also interject into this to make the relation between money/power and politics are self feeding cycle so that those without are forced to remain outside mostly.
Get this, there’s already a thing called the European Union - almost like we’re already pretty united! :)
I don’t really think further unification is the goal here.
USA misunderstand that European State are nowhere similar to US states. If you expect Germany France and Poland to go federal and have common institution for security defense etc… let me tell you it will not happen, we were at war 80 years ago and we’re not even having the same language. Ain’t no way do I’m trusting anybody else than France to represent and defend France
We are not truly united, not yet. The shadow from the east seeks to divide us and corrupt us. Only together we can face it. So sharpen your weapons and train your body because before long we will have to defend our way of life.
The Enemy is already trying to damage our morale. He wants to leave us divided, indecisive, feeble. If we show to be united and determined we will end this war before it comes to our door
The EU is mostly on a peninsula. The only direct threat right now comes from Russia, with maybe some sort of Ottoman Empire style Muslim Empire being a potential problem. Europe has enough coastline to easily trade in resources. As long as the US and China leave Europe alone, there is no real reason to even become a global superpower.
Seriously if Ukraine wins, then Europe is rich and secure for quite some time.
Even if it doesn’t formally unite (which it won’t in the near future), a US-independant Europe would be a superpower by virtue of economic might.
with maybe some sort of Ottoman Empire style Muslim Empire being a potential problem.
Yeah, don’t hold your breath on that one!
Europe puts a ton of international shipping through three choke points. Gibraltar, Suez Canal, and the English Channel. The US Navy is more than capable of locking down all three. So would a Chinese Navy that’s built more for blue water operations than they are now. Europe doesn’t have the air or naval capacity to counter that.
The options left are land routes and going north of England. And even going to the north of England wouldn’t be safe for shipping.
Europe would have more aircraft in the air and European navies are also rather more capable then you might believe. There are reasons the US does not train against European submarines.
It’s hard to get them to agree on anything let alone actually coordinate real world actions together. You are going to be waiting a long time.
