Let’s go Germany!! Shouldn’t be the election to the rule
This sounds like actual impactful consequences and accountability for the rich exploitative asshole executives actually responsible? Did I forget to wake up in the morning?
One insanity in the following years was how they thought people still wanted their next generation diesel.
I’ve been working for them in the 2010s with the department to organise the staff car fleet. We ordered many electric vehicles years ahead from production and planned it all around electric vehicles: Charging stations, operating distance, some hybrids for long distance, software to calculate trips etc.
Then a few months before we needed them, they said: We overproduced on the latest diesel generation and can’t keep up with the demand for electric vehicles, so we have to sell the ones you ordered. You can either go with a Tesla (for official Volkswagen business trips!) or have the diesel for free.
It felt like there was a hysteria: Decision makers got it in their heads that the “hype” for electric vehicles was ideology-driven and not something people with buying power actually wanted today or in the near future. Bit like the republican administration thinking that “woke” is our main problem. Meanwhile, huge research and development departments did come up with the electric vehicles they sell today (and fully working hydrogen prototypes you won’t see in a store, just to be safe) and must have been quite frustrated that so few were produced.
Before anyone becomes too happy: the post’s title is inaccurate, the two people sent to jail are only middle managers:
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deleted my happy post bc of this
What’s Volkswagen’s org structure like? I wouldn’t normally expect a department head to be middle management.
I mean the diesel engine department would probably be quite big for a company like Volkswagen. Each engine type has a team of engineers and a manager.
I… I thought a middle manager is any manager who’s not the very lowest manager, and not the CEO? As in, any manager who has managers above and below them?
Good question - I also don’t know how clear those definitions are. In my head all managers that are under department heads would be middle, and department heads + C-suite would be upper/senior management. And the subset of upper management that is C-level is, well, C-level.
I thought middle management was the guy in between the crew and upper management?
Absolute shit stressful job, btw. Never doing that shit again. If you have a heart, that job will kill it.
Think of them more like division heads. Not quite a regular middle manager, but not C-suite.
Good. Finally they’re facing some actual consequences for their actions.
If only also the politicians that decided what the limits should be without any consideration for the real world would face the consequences…
Not that the VW guys did the right thing, but what other option they had ? Close down and go home ?
The real world consequences of keeping fossil fuel cars is much higher than banning all of them.
I disagree. VW could have crashed their diesel production in favor of hybrids and EVs. They’re playing late to the game catch up now and may not survive at all. Putting off something you know is coming - the end of diesel vehicle prevalence - through deception YOU KNOW WILL RESULT IN MILLIONS OF VEHICLES CONTRIBUTING WORSE EMISSIONS BUT BEING REGARDED AS BETTER - that’s fucking heinous and criminal.
Oh maybe you have an extra biosphere we can slap on to the one being wrecked by CO2? No?
Anyone who knew the truth is complicit in that destruction and we’re only beginning to quantify the harm.
I disagree.
Fine, but aside the fact that everyone lied in this matter, why we should spare the ones that make an absurd law with no ties to the real world and only fueled by ideology ? I repeat, I don’t think that what VW did was right.
VW could have crashed their diesel production in favor of hybrids and EVs.
The hybrids maybe, but that not really solve the problem, even the first hybrids from Toyota had a 1.5 liter gasoline engine.
For a full EVs we are just now at a point where they start to become usable. And the reason is that you need a whole infrastructure around the EV cars, just think about chargers, additional space there to put them, place where you cannot put them and so on.They’re playing late to the game catch up now and may not survive at all.
I agree on that.
Putting off something you know is coming - the end of diesel vehicle prevalence - through deception YOU KNOW WILL RESULT IN MILLIONS OF VEHICLES CONTRIBUTING WORSE EMISSIONS BUT BEING REGARDED AS BETTER - that’s fucking heinous and criminal.
Well, from a technical point of view, the diesel engine is cleaner in some way and dirtier in other so I would say that the diesel is not better but also not worse. It only produce a different type of emissions.
And, by the way, the emission’s limits for a diesel engine in the Euro-X normatives are always way lower then the ones for the gasoline.
Oh maybe you have an extra biosphere we can slap on to the one being wrecked by CO2? No?
Of course not. But on the other hand I am not stupid enough to adhere blindly to an ideology.
Anyone who knew the truth is complicit in that destruction and we’re only beginning to quantify the harm.
So the politicians are the first you need to jail.
Of course not. But on the other hand I am not stupid enough to adhere blindly to an ideology.
ah yes, the silly ideology of breathing.
So how we can call what is behind the “ban this and that” mentality which is without any real study about the consequences and without any suggestion for alternatives ? Pre-intentional stupidity ?
Look, I am fully aware that what VW (and everyone else) did was a crime and I agree that they must pay. On the oher hand I also fully understand that you cannot change the reality only because you write a law to change it, in this case all the Euro-x normatives about emission levels.
Do you think that it is a silly idelogy to ask that also the people that make silly decision that they will not suffer are asked to pay for the consequences ? Fine, think this way.
Do we really lost the concept that one can agree with something but also see what the problems of that thing are ?
Yes, VW could have switched to hydrid or EV but not in the timeframe they are given.
Not to consider that switching the entire production to hybrid and EV without the necessary infrastructure to use them in the real world is useless, you simply build cars that nobody will buy.Tokyo banned diesel motors in the late 90s. As far as I know that didn’t kill Toyota.
At the same time European car makers started to lobby for particle filters that were supposed to solve everything. The politics who where naive enough to believe them do share responsibility, but not as much as the european auto industry that created this whole situation.
Also, you implies that laws are made by politicians without any intervention of the industries whatsoever. I think you know that it is not how it works.
I long for the day that ANYTHING close to this happens in the USA
I long for the day that ANYTHING close to this happens in the USA
I guess you’ve good news, then.
Across the Atlantic, two former VW engineers — Oliver Schmidt and James Robert Liang — are already serving prison sentences in the U.S. Schmidt, who once led VW’s environmental office in the U.S., was sentenced to seven years after initially denying guilt but later reaching a plea deal. Liang received 40 months after cooperating with prosecutors.
To salvage the argument, it’s quite possible this would have been different if they were from GM rather than VW.
It most likely would‘ve. Just look how quickly US courts started to turn Monsanto into shreds the very second Bayer bought it. They‘re after that so called stupid German money. Wouldn‘t work if it was American money.
I am surprised VW clowns got the prison tbh but i am sure there is a reason why it actually happened here.
System fucked up lol
I dunno, VW is about as American as GM.
two former VW engineers
Yeah, unless they are Chief Engineers, these two are just people who got caught in the churn.
Wake me up when the President of US Operations gets sentenced to prison. Hell, I’ll even be okay with club Fed.
They are like the one guy who went to jail for the 08 financial crisis
two former VW engineers
Not CEOs
Neither were the people in Germany.
The court sent the former head of diesel engine development behind bars for four years and six months, and the former head of powertrain electronics to two years and seven months. Two others — Volkswagen’s former development director and a former department head — received suspended sentences, according to Der Spiegel and Deutsche Welle reports from the Braunschweig courtroom.
The (now ex-) CEO of VW, Winterkorn, is a fugitive from justice in US – the reason he isn’t in prison in the US is because he’s hiding in Germany, and Germany doesn’t extradite its nationals. IIRC from memory back during the incident, he’s facing a total of over two hundred years in potential sentence from the charges, though some of that would probably run in parallel, were he convicted, and I assume that in practice, there’d be some sort of plea deal.
EDIT: Maybe it was over one hundred, not two hundred. I distinctly remember trying to figure out whether the sentences could run in parallel when reading an article about it at the time. In practice, he’d probably plea bargain it down, but there also is no parole for federal sentences in the US, so he wouldn’t be getting out early, either.
EDIT2: Also, because he’s a fugitive and it’s a federal crime:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3290
18 U.S. Code § 3290 - Fugitives from justice
No statute of limitations shall extend to any person fleeing from justice.
So I expect that he’s probably going to stay in Germany for the rest of his life, unless he can find some other location that wouldn’t extradite him (Russia?)
According to Wikipedia, he should have a criminal trial in Germany starting this year, so it’s possible he will still get sentenced there as well.
Russia?
Saudi Arabia might take him. Hell, they put up Idi Amin for the remainder of his syphilis-scarred life.
This is the most unbelievable part: a us court held management responsible for criminal behavior? Did that not pay their fines? Did no one have a spare jet to offer?
Seems like it also doesn’t happen in Germany, as the post title doesn’t match the article.
The two people sent to jail are middle managers (Head of XY), not executives.
When you don’t read the article ^
While I see your point, it’s important to note that the people jailed in the US were called “engineers”, not “executives”.
You can be both. Schmidt was general manager of VW’s U.S. Environment and Engineering Office.
As much as I like to see consequences, I would rather have just seen a very large fine put toward environmental purposes than prison time. Save prison for people who pose a direct danger to the public.
I would agree, but with one significant condition:
the fine would have to be large enough to be an effective punishment, and serve as a deterrent. A company as valuable as VW would have to pay an enormous fine.
But their scam did pose a direct health danger to society. If there are never consequences for executives, they won’t care if the company loses some money (or go bankrupt), they land another job elsewhere and live on.
<coughs out a bunch of diesel emissions> “hear hear!”
Would VW have many overseas “executives”?
I don’t know if they’d have many, but I’d expect them to have at least a few. North America is a major market.
Their subsidiary companies do, but VW is a German company, the “executives” are ALL gonna be there dude… and those US execs would be doing what THEIR oversea “executives” want them to, so there’s still people above those who may be overseas. So calling them “executives” would be wrong since there is people above them still.
The point is, your “note” doesn’t matter mate.
Every multinational corp has execs for each region.
President and VP of insert region operation is a common title given to EXECS of foreign corps.
Yes, what do you think subsidiary means…?
These engineers clearly held executive roles, they just weren’t with the Volkswagen (germany) so they would have had to clarify their subsidiary. For journalism this was the correct wording. If they wanted to call them execs, it would have had to go into detail about Volkswagen (Us particular division and reasons)
If you’re talking about Fritolays, you don’t just go and say execs when talking about “lays” or “Doritos” subsidiaries, you would use “engineers” or whatever other work they held to simplify it.
It’s an unnecessary distinction for non mutually exclusive exclusive terms, to use “executives” would lead to more confusion and that would be shit journalism….
It’s an article about the German Volkswagen, why are you assuming it’s about the multinational subsidiary? You can be an engineer for Volkswagen, and their subsidiary, but that requires explaining if you want to call them that. Which is totally unnecessary since the article wasn’t about them.
Oh. You’re only counting GERMAN execs as executives. Okay.
Yes… the article is about the German company dude…… not the “Volkswagen group” and not “Volkswagen international” or whatever includes their multinational groups. To assume otherwise is just weird, they never mentioned anything but their German company.
Terms aren’t mutually exclusive… you don’t think those engineers held executive roles? They just weren’t executives of Volkswagen.
They would have had to say executives of Volkswagen (insert whatever specifics of the subsidiary), for it to be the correct term. Engineers is simpler and easier and is the proper way to express the situation.
Your “point” muddies the water and needs to bring on multiple additional pieces of information, which would also need to be described. Most people would know these engineers held executives roles, with some part farther down the “executive” chain.
You can be an engineer for Volkswagen, while also being the executive for Volkswagen US NW division, but it’s irrelevant to the article and requires more completely unnecessary information, so in the effort of good journalism and brevity….
Even if it’s not VW executives it would be nice to see any executives actually face jail here in the US.
The fallout forced CEO Martin Winterkorn to resign, although he denied wrongdoing. U.S. authorities issued an arrest warrant for Winterkorn in 2018, but Germany does not extradite its nationals.
Unless I misunderstood something?
Why aim low, why not public flogging, and pillories?
How about we don’t bring back corporal punishment. I get the sentiment, but i’d rather our justice system didn’t turn into a torture system.
why do you hate success?
Success = falsifying emissions tests.
that’s how real people get ahead in life while the peasants work
lol which group do you identify as?
the temporarily embarrassed billionaires, obviously
any day now! I will ascendant 🤡
Poe’s law applies here. Remember to use your sarcasm HTML tag!
<s> Why do you hate success? </s>
In Canada we were told that putting execs in jail would “hurt jobs” and we had to pass a law that said they just get a fine instead.
The execs in question were caught selling hookers to Qaddafi’s son.
Before this, I afraid Justin Trudeau was privileged elite, born with a silver spoon in his mouth.
After what he did to Jody Wilson-Raybould, I knew Justin Trudeau was a out of touch tone deaf, nepo baby. Truly he was never able to relate to us Canadian “normies”.
Do you have any more info on that particular story? Research purposes.
Wiki does not mention any sex trafficking.
Search for SNC-Lavalin + Saadi Gadhafi, you’ll get a lot of hits, for many different things. SNC-Lavalin was such a corrupt firm. Still are, most likely, though they changed name to AtkinsRéalis.
(To note : a few high positioned people got sent to prison over the years, but I don’t know enough about this particular case to know what really happened.)
hold on… i thought they were paying bribes to justin’s fam. but they were also engage is sex trafficking?
learn something new every day
Was this really that hard? If money can buy justice then there is no justice.
Checking in from the US: Now you’re getting it.
This! Finally! This will make other execs scratch themselves behind the ears and consider their life choices. Fines for the company they work for won’t, as these same execs just budget these fines into the crimes they’re planning to commit.
Fuck these frauds, hope they stay in for years.
Also, continue doing this, jail all the execs that break the law.
Despite what the headline says, no execs went to jail. The two who were punished with jail terms were middle management.
Martin Winterkorn, the CEO, will probably avoid any serious consequences.
I only have cursory knowledge of this incident, but: It’s possible that was the right outcome. A lot of middle managers do some heinous shit, and then report only positive news to upper management with a “Don’t worry about it” attitude.
We all know there’s also evil CEOs in the world as well, but maybe the investigation found this wasn’t one of them. 'Course, maybe they were just better at keeping plausible deniability.
The Board had discussions about how to stonewall California. US prosecutors have filed charges against the CEO but Germany won’t extradite.
They are all guilty as fuck.
Of course Germany won’t extradite we don’t extradite nationals to non-EU countries. It can even happen that we don’t extradite Americans to the US because they can demonstrate that they’re likely to face torture in the US, such as isolation cells.
I mean, apart from the apparent guilt, do you think any country would simply hand over its prominent nationals? If there were a case against an US CEO in Germany, hell would freeze over before extradition.
The point is that the US has gathered enough evidence to get indictments against them. Germany has access to that same evidence and has very similar laws that were violated – but has done basically nothing.
I understand the point, and for the record I also believe those responsible should be held accountable personally. The difficult thing is simply the international character of the crimes committed. If these things are illegal in Germany, perhaps they should be tried under German law and courts.
But I also recognise that’s probably not going to happen due to the people accused having too much (political/soft) power. It’s a real dilemma when we’re talking about white collar crime.
Say for example, I do something right now in my home country, which is illegal for me to do in, say Madagascar, but is legal where I live. The thing I’m doing, I’m doing from my office in my home country. The effect is in Madagascar - is it then reasonable for Madagascar to ask my home country for extradition?
It’s absolutely not the same as what’s happened, but I’m taking it to an extreme to make a point. International laws are really difficult, especially when extradition of nationals is at play… not to invalidate the fact that these people did something very wrong by the way!
The US really like their prisoners, don’t they.
They demand extraditing of prisoners from other countries, but won’t ever extradite to other countries themselves.
Yeah, the second one. It’s the ones prepared to do shit like that who get promoted in the first place.
Sounds about right
I’m used to executives being above the law. I had to read the article to be sure the title wasn’t clickbait.
It is very puzzling, isn’t it? Why VW execs are put in jail and banking execs that created a global recession get off scot free?
oh that’s easy. the VW execs were under the jurisdiction of a country that gives a fuck and knows what the consecuences of unchecked greed are. the bankers were under the jurisdiction of a country that thinks maybe a little bit of fascism wouldn’t be so bad, all things considered
Except, as noted above, they were jailed in US too.
Because that act didn’t hurt an American company
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They are, the post title is false. The people going to jail are middle managers
US Republicans be like “ANTI-BUSINESS! Enjoying communism?”
Neat! Punishing conspiracy and engineered lying is a good thing!
I’m getting a paywall or adblock block or something. Anyone have a less problematic link to the article?
Here you go:
Four former Volkswagen managers have been convicted of fraud for their roles in the so-called Dieselgate scandal, which erupted when U.S. regulators discovered that the company had installed software to cheat emissions tests on millions of VW, Audi, and Porsche vehicles worldwide.
The court sent the former head of diesel engine development behind bars for four years and six months, and the former head of powertrain electronics to two years and seven months. Two others — Volkswagen’s former development director and a former department head — received suspended sentences, according to Der Spiegel and Deutsche Welle reports from the Braunschweig courtroom.
The verdict follows nearly four years of proceedings and adds to the mounting legal troubles for Volkswagen. Prosecutors had asked for prison terms of two to four years, while the defense argued the men were scapegoats. Appeals remain possible.
After being caught cheating in 2015, the company admitted to installing software in its diesel engines that activated emissions controls only during laboratory testing, allowing the vehicles to meet U.S. standards while in real-world driving, the vehicles emitted up to 40 times more pollutants.
The fallout forced CEO Martin Winterkorn to resign, although he denied wrongdoing. U.S. authorities issued an arrest warrant for Winterkorn in 2018, but Germany does not extradite its nationals. His trial in Germany was paused in 2021 due to health issues, but he remains a key figure under investigation.
Meanwhile, the arrest of Audi’s then-CEO Rupert Stadler in 2018 marked a dramatic shift, as German prosecutors expanded their probe into current executives. Stadler was accused of continuing to sell cars with illegal software even after the scandal broke.
Across the Atlantic, two former VW engineers — Oliver Schmidt and James Robert Liang — are already serving prison sentences in the U.S. Schmidt, who once led VW’s environmental office in the U.S., was sentenced to seven years after initially denying guilt but later reaching a plea deal. Liang received 40 months after cooperating with prosecutors.
Currently, German authorities are investigating up to 40 executives and engineers across Volkswagen, Audi, and Porsche, with parallel cases against Daimler (Mercedes) and BMW under way.
OCCRP previously reported on Volkswagen’s 2017 U.S. guilty plea and multibillion-dollar settlement.
The Dieselgate saga has so far cost VW an estimated €33 billion ($37.5 billion) and the legal and financial fallout is far from over.
Thousands of European customers continue to press for compensation, while investigators on both sides of the Atlantic keep pushing for accountability at the highest levels.
defense argued the men were scapegoats.
If you are at the top of an organisation then you can you be a scapegoat? You are literally in charge. Your only chance is if an employee committed fraud and deliberately hid something from you.
Head of department is middle management. Middle management is certainly the most vulnerable position in situations like this.
The top manager got a nice compensation and very high pension (according to German media ~€1.3 million per year), while the owners (Piech/Porsche family) still earn billions every year.
Top managers do seem to be targeted.
CEO Martin Winterkorn’s trial in Germany was paused in 2021 due to health issues, but he remains a key figure under investigation.
The arrest of Audi’s then-CEO Rupert Stadler in 2018 marked a dramatic shift into current executives.
Owners responsibility is interesting. I think the concept of limited liability protects them, but should it? If they actively influenced the policy I don’t think it should (but proving that is difficult).
The dieselgate scandal is why I am so disappointed when I heard that Volkswagen outsold Tesla in Europe for the number one spot since the start of the year. I have been hoping it would a more scrupulous company (and non-Chinese EV manufacturer) that took the number one spot for European EV cars sold.
Most people don’t know that it wasn’t just VW. Sadly I don‘t think you will find any moral acting car manufacturer out there.
Automakers who have been caught using a defeat device within a diesel vehicle, in a similar manner to Volkswagen include: Jeep and Ram under FCA[391] (now a part of Stellantis), Opel[392] (when under GM), and Mercedes-Benz.[393]
While not all using defeat devices, diesel vehicles built by a wide range of carmakers, including Volvo, Renault, Mercedes, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroen, BMW, Mazda, Fiat, Ford and Peugeot[48][49] had independent tests carried out by ADAC that proved that, under normal driving conditions, many diesel vehicles exceeded legal European emission limits for nitrogen oxide (NOx), some by more than 10 times, and one by 14 times.[49]
Beyond exclusively diesel or passenger vehicles, automakers such as: Hino[414] (subsidiary of Toyota), Hyundai and Kia,[415] Nissan,[416] Mazda, Yamaha Motors, Suzuki,[417] Subaru,[418] and others have been proven to be falsifying fuel economy or emissions on non-diesel powered and/or commercial vehicles.
Volkswagen was definitely had the loudest outrage but as you mention, anyone making a diesel was doing the same thing.
And to your point about morals, yeah most corporations have no idea what morals are, and some might say that’s their right as a company to just focus on money, damn everyone and everything else, your health, the environment not if it interferes with my corporations profit margin.
Social contract what’s that about.
I think you mean more scrupulous, not less.
You are right. I just corrected my comment.
If it makes you feel any better, all brands had illegally high emissions. People only tie it to VW so much because they were the first to be tested, and they owned up to it, meaning media could call them out on it without fear of libel.
VW wasn’t even close to the worst offender.
They only owned up after lying and obfuscating for years. California said they work with manufacturers when they are out of compliance, but brought their lawsuit because VW wouldn’t cooperate
being “scrupulous” is bad business tbh
until the law and regulatory frameworks enable good business we will keep getting more of these parasites.
Even without diselgate vw group cars are just poorly engineered rebadges. If not dieselgate, jail them for the hitler engine.
This is the way.
I would love to see counterarguments to this instead of just downvotes
Death penalties should never be used since you can never be 100% sure of a crime. Otherwise you will get innocents executed.
Even CEOs can be scapegoats.
That is a very good argument, however these financial crimes are on the one hand much more trackable than direct violent crime and can affect more people.
My opinion is that we shouldn’t execute serial killers who kill dozens of people, because usually it’s hard to prove beyond doubt to the point such an irrevocable act can be taken and the process takes very long and is very expensive and is not that useful as a deterrent since these people are usually mentally ill in the first place.
But with the Boeing CEO whose actions caused several plane crashes, it’s pretty easy to prove since instructions had to come from somewhere and the buck stops at the top, it has deterrent value, just look at UnitedHealth, and the crime is much more severe than that of a serial killer, as most serial killers don’t kill multiple hundreds of people.
I mean my own counterargument to it as that no state should have the power to execute people, and if it should it shouldn’t use it on criminals, and if it should it shouldn’t use it on financial crimes. Yeah $12bil is a lot, and I am absolutely in favor of hard time as a punishment for financial crimes, but I don’t think seriously think anyone should die over it.
no state should have the power to execute people
I would present a counterargument to that, as all states in the world ultimately have this power, only the circumstances differ. I mean, grab a gun and try to shoot at armed police anywhere in the world. You will be killed, and nobody can sue the state or the police who shot you for unjustly executing you. Killing you is always fair to protect other people from being killed.
From there, we are arguing whether states should be able to kill in cold blood, which is a different conversation, and my opinion is that we should keep making penalties for “financial crimes”, which usually kill more people than any mass shooter or serial killer could, harsher and harsher until there is a clearly visible deterrent effect.
The case of the lady in Vietnam is not even a direct “cold blood” case by the way, as the state agreed to spare her if she puts at least most of the money back, which means that lives lost because of the absence of that money might be spared. In my view, this is analogous to shooting at an active shooter, and an okay thing to do. Lives are being saved by doing this.
I was making an argument about should, not does, and executing people is rather different than shooting someone in defense of yourself/others.
I agree that financial crimes should have harsh penalties, just not death. The problem is that we don’t generally apply penalties to this type of crime at all; fining a company $500mil after they made $40bil or whatever by circumventing laws/regulations is not a penalty, it’s the cost of doing business.
