https://feddit.org/post/12851368
https://feddit.org/post/12529640
due to the previously communicated defamation campaign by quokk.au, which was later followed by defederation by them after we requested them to remove their censure, we have now defederated from quokk.au.
One of the triggers for the current debate is this post, which followed the removal of a comment comparing National Socialism with the current situation in Israel, which can be considered a trivialization of National Socialism. Such statements can, among other things, lead to imprisonment. Among other things, the post claimed that the removal had a Zionist motive, an accusation that should always be supported by appropriate evidence and prior to which it should be ruled out that there are alternative explanations.
We will not be removing every comment that goes even remotely in this direction, but we reserve the right to permanently ban users from feddit.org who make unfounded accusations, such as labeling our instance, admins, moderators, or other users as Nazis or Zionists, without substantial supporting arguments. This is especially the case when this is recurring behavior and not an isolated incident.
If this censure by quokk.au is not withdrawn in a timely manner, we will defederate quokk.au from our side for these unsubstantiated and untrue accusations.
one of quokk.au’s admins called a feddit’s admin “absolute trash human being” and “nazi cunt”. That seems to be the reason.
Apparently they felt so upset for being banned from feddit that they defederated their instance (quokk.au) from feddit.org altogether. Now feddit.org defederated back.
Honestly that admin just seems insulting and toxic. I’m glad that kind of stuff has no place on my instance.
Trump been compared to hitler and people insult people defending the terrible person Trump is. Nobody righfully complain about, but when someone insult someone defending a genocide people like you start to appear
at no point did the feddit admins defend genocide.
What does it mean to censor the movement to sanction a genocidal state?
Sure the admin may be unhinged, but removing a post about making a distinction between anti-zionism and anti-semitism?
I got some translation from their post on it about how they can’t tolerate “accusations” of being called zionists? What’s wrong with accusations? Removing the comment is sufficient evidence for it.
Also there’s something there about such discussions being precarious because it’s against some german,swiss laws? Can someone who knows german explain it a little better? Because it seems like “We will not discuss this because we don’t like this discussion”
Germany has laws against minimising the atrocities of the holocaust. The feddit.org admins have a personal opinion that likening the nakba to the holocaust minimises the holocaust, which would make it illegal.
Israel use same methods as nazis and the holocust. Banning comparison minimize the genocide is gaza
Is advocating for palestinians right to resistance, condemning the ideology that created the whole conflicts, banning our only real option of boycott a minimization of the holocust?
They don’t remove posts or comments that do that. I am quite active on feddit and the general consensus on that instance is pretty pro-palestine. The vast majority of anti-zionist posts do not get removed.
What they (sometimes) remove though is comparions between nazi-germany and Zionism. The admins on that instance argued that doing this may breach German laws, so they decided to remove some of the most notorious comments about that.
They removed posts because they fear they may violate german law. Also, feddit admins did not defederate from quokk.au because of the accusations - it is because one of their admins harrassed a feddit admin (calling them Nazi scum, wished death upon them - see my above comment) - then defederated quokk.au from feddit because of “Zionism” (which is so dumb if you ask me) - and then feddit defederated quokk.au back
Holocaust denial/inversion/relativization is something (for good reason) illegal in Germany. Neonazis have been doing this for a long time and obviously it needs to be illegal. When it comes to Israel’s war crimes obviously there is more nuance to this but there are boundaries too. As a german leftist I can say that a lot of us are more careful when it comes to language around the issue. There is a balancing act we have to do and I wish people outside could respect that.
In all honesty, this is how I feel about it. I am pro-palestine in pretty much every regard, but I have limits with the language I use. I recognize Zionism as the result of the jewish struggle of the 19th and 20th century. It does not mean I like it or I see it as an ideology that can bring about peace in the region. It also does not mean I justify any of the crimes Israel’s government is doing. But it does mean that I don’t compare it to Nazism. I don’t like this discussion because it leads nowhere. Invalidating/inverting/relativizing the jewish struggle does nothing for the Palestinians and I feel annoyed that so many internet leftists insist so much on doing that. If there is no space for nuance, I am not interested in discussion
There’s a sizeable difference between zionism being related to 19th and 20th century antisemitism and being a result from it.
The 19th and 20th century pogroms were gleefully used by zionists to justify their political project and anti-arab ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Comparing that political project to National Socialism is possibly the most appropriate comparison of any political movement since the holocaust, and far from hand-waiving this policy away as a regrettable legal restriction the mods at feddit.org seem quite keen on defending it as policy.
On the contrary, Holocaust exceptionalism prevents one from recognizing the severity and urgency of stopping genocides as they are happening. Nobody outside of Germany knew the scale of the Holocaust until long after it had actually ended - it would be self-defeating if we barred any discussion of genocidal political projects that draws too-close a comparison to the one we are most eager to prevent from happening again.
If you oppose palestinians right to armed resistance , oppose promoting boycott against a genocidal state and opposr calling out the ideology that caused the whole conflict. You are not a pro palestinian(anti colonialism) person
Thank you for the answer. I guess it’s understandable. Though the original comment in this post doesn’t deny the existence of an Israeli state.
This isn’t the same as calling someone you don’t like a Nazi. But even then, the term Nazi, in this day and age, no longer just means people who idolize Hitler and hate on Jews. Its use has expanded to include all those who are willing to genocide another group of people and more.
And though I can see the need to separate the semantics within Germany itself, due to its history and laws, its supposed misappropriation is an irrelevant discussion at this stage. A lot of Israeli’s are very openly and loudly advocating for the erasure of the Palestinian people, even children and innocent people. It’s not even a joke, that they are using the same terminologies and tactics. It is impossible to not conflate them with Nazis.
This isn’t to deny the Jewish struggle, of course, this is to say that calling the Israeli government and stooges Nazis isn’t an invalidation of the Jewish struggle. These people are, save for a time machine, literal Nazis (the IDF, the Israeli government and anyone advocating for the erasure of Palestinians).
You are arguing semantics when we are long past that.
Even then, it’s a flimsy argument. It just feels like another measure to maintain a semblance of historical guilt by the government, not an actual effort to help the Jewish people. If you can show me where “misusing” the label Nazi is worse for the Jewish people and their struggles, than the literal genocide of the Palestinian people by a Jewish state, I’ll change my mind.
People forget that the fundation of nazizm is the aryan pseudo race. While jews was for them the ultimate enemy of the aryan race, nazis killed other groups people with handicaps, homosexuals and slaves and poles
I am a lot more tolerant about calling the Israeli government and Israeli fascists Nazis. Semantically, one could make arguments against it, but at this time and day, I’d agree, I have no intention to defend them - they deserve the hatred.
Now, if someone calls the entirety of Zionism, or every Israeli Jew a Nazi is something I oppose. This would be a massive inversion of reality and I don’t want to see that rhetoric on my instance. I know there is nuance and there are a number of things I’d be willing to concede - but I am glad that the most hateful and deranged comments get removed. What this quokk.au admin said is certainly in the territory of being deranged.
I would instead ask you to stop pitting two people’s struggles against each other. We would never compare different types of struggles the same way. One thing is bad. Another thing is worse. But that second thing does not make the first thing okay. Especially when you have the privilege of not being part of either group. If you acknowledge that misusing Nazi labels (on the people oppressed by the Nazis) is wrong, then it follows that you cannot justify doing that by saying that there are other people who are worse off.
I hope we can concur that in this discussion, neither of us are helping the Palestinians in any kind of form. This whole thread is about a toxic lemmy admin who victimized themself for suffering consequences for their violent/insulting language. I’d feel a lot more comfortable in pro-palestinian spaces that can do without this sort of toxicity.
I would be first in line to die on the hill if it was about letting the Jewish people have their own state, everyone has that right. But the original comment wasn’t about anything against that, the comment wasn’t hateful. It was just arguing a perspective arguing that weapons funding should be cut to the Israeli state to help mitigate the genocide that they are propagating.
I can’t argue for what happened afterwards in-between the admins, but the removal of the comment was unnecessary. Instead of invalidating an arguable issue, it was conversely invalidating the genocide of another group of humans (is it because they are brown?) in an effort to aggressively enforce a law. Whatever the law is, it needs updating from holocaust to genocide in general, otherwise you are picking which skin colored people you are okay with being murdered on mass.
When it comes to the usage of Nazi as a label, the intent matters grossly. If someone was doing this just to satisfy some morbid requirement (like Russia is with Ukraine) then it’s obviously wrong, But even there, I think that’s a different matter than holocaust denial, it doesn’t hurt the Jewish people as much as a state that represents them committing mass murder does. A lot of people died in the holocaust besides the Jewish people you know? And the Nazis were responsible for a lot more atrocities than just that. The Label isn’t just for the Jewish people’s struggle. Being a Nazi is about being a race supremacist and genociding people.
Israel couldn’t exists without mass displacement and israel was funded because of zionism which they did. Israel since it’s creation been oppresing palestinians and comiting war crime. Saying that we should just condemn Natanyaho is ignoring facts
Should Lemmy.world apply the same standards as they are hosted at Hetzner?
I am too much of an anarchist to care about laws, but I believe any instance should moderate against hatred and strive for a healthy environment where constructive discourse is encouraged and unconstructive/toxic discourse is mitigated. That counts for racism, homophobia, and also for antisemitism or dehumanization of Palestinians.
Now, there are difficult questions about moderation that I am glad I don’t have to answer. But I can confidently say that the language that quokk.au admin used has no place in a healthy online community and it is fair it’s banned from it.
Doesn’t really answer my question.
If there is a legal obligation in Germany to have a policy similar to what feddit.org has, Lemmy.world and other instances using Hetzner should implement it.
If not, then they shouldn’t, and then feddit.org shouldn’t use the legal argument.
Now it’s kind of an ambiguous situation where it’s not clear what the legal obligation actually is.
legally speaking, probably both must follow german law. But I’m not a lawyer. I can imagine lemmy.world admins don’t worry as much because they are not from germany, only their servers.
Also I think lemmy.world moderates against holocaust inversion. I have reported comments for that on both instances and comments on lemmy.world were actually more likely to get removed (tbf they were also much more notorious there)
Isn’t that synonymous with “Zionist”?