Let’s take all that “You can’t POSSIBLY vote for GENOCIDE-adjacent person even if the alternative is LITERALLY A HUNDRED TIMES WORSE INCLUDING LOTS MORE GENOCIDE” energy
And apply it to “You can’t POSSIBLY sit around typing on the internet while the world is falling apart, let’s get involved in direct activism to make the US a better place instead of hoping that voting is enough which it definitely isn’t”
While also, yes, voting for “not the end of the world”
tl;dr - Vote and boo.
I’ll vote and boo. But I’ll be exercising my right to vote by voting third party.
There’s no law against that
Yet
But if they cosplay as a leftist IRL then their social groups, redcaps all, might see them and ostracize them.
Hey, Trump was already president for four years, and didn’t do this despite the exact same scaremongering back then. His actions in office were practically identical to Biden’s now.
We need to protect our democracy, as the ability to freely choose between policies is fundamental to the perpetuation of a liberal society.
On that note, you have exactly one viable choice to make and it will - at absolute best - kick the can down the road for two years. At that point, you will once again be told we need to protect democracy.
At this point we’re just hoping for the most damage mitigation possible.
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In my younger, more optimistic days. I was naive ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Maybe if you did some collective action between events instead of waiting two years for the polls to open and then complaining that FPTP is still giving you only two choices.
Love this comment! As i commented elsewhere, get outside and make ur local politicians uncomfortable until they pass Rqnked Choice. Plenty of state level measures going around right now, no waiting necessary!
Maybe if you did some collective action
That would be crazy if I was doing that regularly.
I’ll say, five minutes at the Houston Food Bank feels infinitely more productive than an hour waiting for access to the one functional voting machine in my district
We have to protect our democracy where there is no choice but to vote for Biden!
Yeah, it’s a negative framing, but it is true as well. By being held to ransom, our options have effectively been reduced to one. That’s why you gotta do the work locally and advocate the need to break apart this system before it breaks us all.
And vote in your local elections, don’t just tune in every 4 years!
What is the problem with Biden? As a non-American, I only notice how regularly Republicans block everything from the Democrats no matter how big the damage is and somehow the population embarrasses the Democrats for it or specifically biden… i.e. the same action against biden as from republicans or trump and that from the beginning. Why was Biden elected in the first place if both Republicans and Democrats use this to destroy democracy?
On the subject of genocide… Republicans and Democrats would apparently also be happier if the genocide took place against Israel, then increasingly against Ukraine and against the West. So that democracy in the West is destroyed further and further, especially by the fragmentation of their own shitty population.
You have no understanding… Republicans and Democrats both support Israel. You’re clearly very ignorant and I have no idea why you’re being upvoted for this nonsense ahh comment
When I talk about Republicans and Democrats, I am talking about the population and not just the politicians who represent them. Within the population there are protests etc. that further contribute to destabilization from both sides.
🙄🙄 that’s literally a Trump line. don’t speak on something you know nothing about
Well your first post you called me instantly ignorant now comparing with trump… while you ignoring what I wrote first “As a non-American, I only notice” while you ignoring stuff like the campus protest or the whole destabilization etc. But yea call me ignorant…
Yes, you admitted to your ignorance and kept yapping.
Trump literally said both sides caused deaths at Charlottesville even though it was the white supremacists who were the sole cause of violence. You are ignorant.
You are ignorant even on the 2nd repetition to ignore the fact that I reflect the point of view as a non-American (I never said I was familiar with the political system itself, but I can give my view of what my impression of America is.) . Even better you just absolve Republicans and Democrats of racism which apparently doesn’t exist in your opinion… awesome you just solved the racism problem you genius there is simply no racism in Republicans and Democrats… so simple damn.
I get the feeling most of the critics to this post don’t actually live in the US. When it’s you, your family and your friends in danger of being shipped off to the death camps, no amount of philosophical masturbation matters in comparison.
I’m trans and live in the US, I just also have an actual spine.
The way people talk about Palestinians today is the way they’ll talk about trans people tomorrow. Based on the logic of lesser-evilism, if the next election comes down to a democrat who wants to genocide trans people, and a republican who wants to genocide trans people and some other group(s), then you’ll deploy the exact same arguments about supporting “lesser genocide.” No one is safe once we accept this logic, at that point it’s all about trying to shift to target onto another group’s back to protect yourself.
Solidarity isn’t just about doing the right thing, it’s a practical survival strategy. It’s about different groups banding together and recognizing that an attack on one is an attack on all, and that no amount of genocide towards any group is acceptable.
How are you blind to the fact that Republicans currently want to genocide trans folk…
Because they’re delusional. There are some love letters to China in their history. I guess genocide is fine if it’s against Uighurs, huh?
I guess genocide is fine if it’s against Uighurs, huh?
Do you have any
evidenceto support this testimony?Get a clue, buddy. “I’m trans and Biden bad, China good.” So you do support genocide.
The weird part is you think having Donald win will turn the US into communism instead of a capitalist authoritarian hellscape. Or, I suppose you think that will topple America so that “Socialism with Chinese characteristics” can expand across the world?
Protip, genius: the “Chinese characteristics” are capitalism. They still have billionaires.
So you do support genocide.
Do you have any
evidenceto support this testimony?The weird part is you think having Donald win will turn the US into communism
I oppose Donald Trump for the exact same reasons I’ve stated for opposing Joe Biden… because he supports genocide!
Protip, genius: the “Chinese characteristics” are capitalism. They still have billionaires.
Hold it!
Are you saying that you consider Deng’s market reforms to be a right-wing deviation, and that you support hard-line Maoism?
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How many Native Americans had The USA killed? Because they are still regulated to Reservations and have no real Representation in Congress to this day.
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I’m not “blind” to that at all! I’m fully aware of it!
I’d rather die as someone who opposed genocide, than live as someone who didn’t
In the long run, if minority groups are being picked off one by one, and Democrats keep following Republicans to the right, then… it’s inevitable that we’ll be targeted sooner or later!
No one who supports genocide for political expediency will ever have my back! How could it be politically advantageous to stick their neck out for such a small minority? There’s only one way: if different minorities band together and treat an attack on one as an attack on all!
And that means zero tolerance for genocide!
Being Complicit with the Genocide of Transfolks IS NOT having Zero Tolerance for Genocide
Furthermore, Its a hell of alot harder for minorities to band together when they are actively being genocided. Voting for the lesser of two evils allows for that Solidarity to form and expand. Voting will never directly bring about Socialism in America, but voting can give the working class time for Class Conciousness to form that will inevitably lead to that outcome.
Voting IS NOT a purity test, it is a dirty tool that must be used until other tools can be put in place to allow the workers to seize the means of production.
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Biden’s lack of action on Israel’s brutal campaign in Palestine is not something I support. And if the public could pressure him to cutting aid and assistance to Israel until they cease and start providing actual care for those displaced and not tent cities I’d be the first in line to support that action.
But allowing the other guy who actually establish actual concentration camps on the border to illegally detain and abuse refugees that fled hundreds of miles for a chance at a better and honest life is totally unacceptable. All the terrible and worst thing Biden had done in office, and there has definitely been a few, amount to nothing that trump did in a typical week. And that was before he really pursued ideas of being a full authoritarian dictator out to wipe his ass with the constitution and make sure he ruled for life. Trump got more people killed during Covid than Israel’s attempt at genocide. So no, its not disingenuous to say Trunp is dangerous for everybody if he somehow gets back into office and instead of a prison cell where he belongs.
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And I hope Trump does treat you with the same complete lack of humanity that you display towards those outside your bubble. You deserve it.
It’s hilarious when you fascist simps go mask off.
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Biden has been passively or second hand
“Passively?” “Second hand?”
Biden has been providing Israel with billions of dollars of unconditional military aid!If a murderer was in the midst of killing people, and someone comes up and hands them more guns and ammunition… That person would obviously be an accomplice! There’s nothing “passive” about it!
But there’s an even bigger problem with this testimony: if Biden is only “passively” involved in genocide… Then why is he protecting Netanyahu from the ICC?
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Ah, yet another tankie pretending to be an enlightened leftist.
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So enlightened that they assume everyone’s from the US. Most enlightened.
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Since you seem to have the answer to everything, in November, who should people vote for?
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He’s actively blocking attempts to have netanyahu prosecuted by the ICC. About as far from “lack of action” as you could get.
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Spent all night last night watching student protestors get their heads bashed in and catching facefuls of bear mace from modern day brown shirts, then come here and get told to vote so that doesn’t happen. Bizarro world.
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So what exactly is your glorius leader and govt doing then if you want to high horse this
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I live in the US, born and raised. I am queer and a racial minority as well as very politically active. I and everyone I know will be refusing to vote for Biden. He has made nothing meaningfully better since Trump and in fact has made things worse. Regardless of that, I can’t in good conscience vote for someone aiding a genocide. I think everyone who is voting for Biden in the US must be very privileged and unaware or otherwise removed from the effects of the severe decline in living standards under his administration. But even if that weren’t true… he’s aiding a literal mass-child-murder genocide, and by voting for him, I’d feel like I was giving my approval for such a heinous, despicable thing. I wish the democrats had put forward a decent human being that I could vote for, but they didn’t, and I can’t. The US is sliding towards fascism and if you think that won’t keep happening just because the blue team puts their geriatric genocidal guy at the top, I think you’re painfully naive.
Ok but do you seriously think trump would have handled Gaza any differently? I think he would have handled it even worse.
No way! Surely the fella who kicked off his term with a “Muslim ban” would have saved all the Palestinians! It’s not like he wants Israel to “finish the job” or anything like that. Surely the fella who tweeted nuclear threats against Iran would have been the best choice to have in office when they fired their rockets.
But would you rather have Trump? Because that’s what will happen if all the people who don’t like either party too much don’t vote.
I think they genuinely want Trump and for him cause generational suffering (judge appointments) which in their mind will eventually lead to reforms decades down the road. They are perfectly willing to sacrifice people now for that chance later.
The US is sliding towards fascism
Who are you voting for then that will help keep Trump out of office?
This cosplayer doesn’t want no fascism, they want full fascism. They want another “Muslim ban” and they want Israel to “finish the job.”
They also want Repubs to pass more laws like banning anything mentioning LGBT from schools. Force teachers who mention anything of the sort to register as sex offenders.
The US has done been fascist, its about voting for the fascist that will do the least harm.
Absolutely wild that you’re getting downvoted for this. Head in the sand behavior.
Then afterwords we pass electoral reform right?
so people can vote for the candidate that best represents them, with no spoiler effect because their vote is still counted against the republicans. Democrats believe in democracy right?
The liberal party in Canada campaigned on election reform and then when they got elected said ah actually nah that doesn’t really benefit us sorry
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Then afterwords we pass electoral reform right?
You wanna guess which party has been amiable towards electoral reform and which has been hostile?
I’m guessing both are amiable to reforms that benefit them and oppose those that don’t.
Allowing reforms which would ditch the two uarty system would hurt both parties. That’s why it will never be implemented by any of them.
That’s why it will never be implemented by any of them.
Yeah that’s why RCV hasn’t seen any progress anywhere in the US recently. /s
Given that both parties are now facing 3rd (4th?) party challenges, it might actually be in their interest to pass RCV. In the short term, it would reduce the spoiler effect, even if has a long term risk of undermining the duopoly.
Electoral reform has to happen at the state level, and it’s most likely to happen in extreme Democrat strongholds. So yes, if enough people vote Democrat, eventually electoral reform.
Trust me, Republicans are not interested in electoral reform, except maybe to outlaw elections.
Thinking the Democrats (or Republicans) are interested in passing any meaningful electoral reform is pure delusion.
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I don’t trust Dems to believe in meaningful voting choice. I only reluctantly vote for them because they haven’t fully embraced fascism.
People need to organize in large numbers for electoral reform to make it happen. It is not going to happen if we don’t agitate for it.
I mean almost every implementation of it thus far has been by dems so yes actually that is well within the realm of possibility.
Can’t electoral reform be passed on a state level in the US? I know shit about the US but I heard someone mention that.
Yes, states control how elections are run in their state.
It has to be passed at the state level, or via Constitutional convention (ie, the ultimate “let’s completely change the structure of government” nuclear option).
It’s hardly the nuclear option
We can do this on the state level! Many states currently have measures establishing ranked choice voting that all of us would do well to pressure our state officials to pass. Id love to see protesters camping out in front of state congresspeoples houses with signs about their local measure. No need to wait until after the election!
But yes thatd be excellent after November, as well
Seriously, why can’t they get a better candidate? 😕
Because in 2020 not enough Democrats voted for the better candidate.
Such a sorry state of state affairs.
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I’m voting for someone better. It’s an option. They probably won’t win tho
Given the stakes in this particular election, I don’t think it’s a good option
What are the stakes? A genocidal maniac vs a genocidal maniac?
Found the white leftist.
Moghafil, you don’t get to use my people’s plight as an excuse to get out of your bare minimum duty to protect lives with your choices.
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And by not voting for him, you’re voting for the guy who gave Netenyahu the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.
I know damn well who Netenyahu would be voting for if he got the choice, and that’s all you need to know too if you aren’t just a bougeyvik fascist.
And by not voting for him, you’re voting for the guy who gave Netenyahu the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.
Not to mention the guy who ALSO will block the ICC from prosecuting Netanyahu.
And by not voting for him, you’re voting for the guy who
Not how voting works
I know damn well who Netenyahu would be voting for if he got the choice
probably the guy blocking the International Criminal Court from prosecuting him for documented war crimes
You’ve got your head on straight. Screw these attempts to guilt you into voting how someone else wants you to
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Did you guys prepare a candidate capable of primarying Biden?
Because who you can vote for is controlled by wealthy people and corporations that lobby the dominant parties, because the only way to amass that much support to run a campaign is through the Democrats or Republicans. You can’t vote for who you want, you must always pick the lesser of two evils.
America has never really had proper democracy at the federal level if you can’t vote third party, realistically.
Ah, so it’s just corrupt rich people screwing the world over like always…
- Your vote for president likely doesn’t matter unless you live in one of a few states
- The Dems love that they can just scare you into voting against Trump rather than doing things that would excite you to vote Blue
- They love you caring more about Trump than Gaza or Cop City or Haiti
- There’s WAY more to vote for than President
Mostly agree, but you be saying #2 like scare tactics isn’t the standard practice for mostly all politicians in every party these days (not even just in the USA, but all around the globe). Trying to make that a trait of a specific party feels kinda disingenuous to me.
Dems got stuck on fear-based politics in 2015 and never recovered.
This is of course secondary to their primary strategy of fear-based fundraising. They’re a fundraising organization first and foremost. They forgot how to be actual political representatives long before 2015.
You’re right it’s not specific to them. I’m talking about Dems because the thread is about liberals feeling obligated to vote Dem to stop Trump.
I might argue that using fear to gain/maintain power is a thing that all powerful people/institutions do. It might be a feature of all hierarchical power structures. Anyway, it’s gross every time
If you need anything more than “the other candidate is a fascist running openly on a platform of doing fascism” to do everything you can to vote and get others out to the polls too, you may turn your ally badge in and sit at the table with all the other fascists.
Formal proposal that all the grammable marches and rallies post security that check for proof of having voted to get let in, sounds like a club bouncer, but these people are coming hard with “bachelorette party at a gay club” energy anyways.
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Tell me you’re a bougeyvik without telling me you’re a bougeyvik.
If the white left’s chronic inaction doesn’t get us all killed it will be the stress induced aneurysms having to deal with them inevitably causes.
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Then you’re appropriating my culture, stop
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I have no interest of appropriating your culture of being a feckless, genocide supporting lib
So you support Biden?
You assume that voting will make a difference but it won’t. Not only because most of us don’t live in swing states but also, because voting doesn’t change American politics. Biden showed us that. Hell, Obama showed us, America is still gonna be it’s ugly self no matter who’s in the oval office.
I refuse to keep pretending that a blue guy in charge is meaningfully better. They just talk nicer and give the people here a couple more things.
I want everyone to demand what they actually want, not settle for the guys who seem better than those other douchebags.
Your proposal is terrible lol
As someone who actually lives the difference daily, your privilege is showing.
- Your vote for president likely doesn’t matter unless you live in one of a few states
Unless the NPVIC gets through before November
I’ll vote if you do more than just vote.
You have no right to hold this over people’s heads, and even implying a tit for tat arrangement is suggesting that anyone who doesn’t “do more than just vote” isn’t doing their part. Some of us have demanding jobs, kids, family that requires care, or other demands that do not allow time for political activity beyond voting which has already been made extremely difficult in some areas.
In short: get fucked. Go vote. Don’t try to create some kind of one-upsmanship game that predicates your civic responsibility on someone else’s volunteered time.
This is extremely hostile. I was being cheeky. I want people to get more involved as much as other people want me to vote, that’s the point I’m trying to make. I’ll vote, and I don’t need you to try and scare me or shame me about it. Maybe ask yourself why this makes you so upset that you have to swear at a stranger over it. Seems like there’s something else going on that deserves your attention more than my dumb comment
It’s intended to be hostile. Maybe you were “being cheeky” (I doubt it) but it doesn’t read that way in a text format and a lot of people making those same statements are not. What makes me so upset about this situation is people like yourself not taking it seriously. We are, without hyperbole, looking at an honest to God threat to democracy and you are making if/then statements about your willingness to vote. Trying to shame people into being more politically active is the wrong way to do it.
I am tired of people treating this like it’s a game, and I am tired of people being flippant about voting for the lesser of two evils.
What makes you think being intentionally hostile toward someone would persuade them to vote? Wouldn’t it make more sense to try and educate? I said I was being cheeky, but even now you can’t resist calling me a liar. I really wish you wouldn’t, you know, I’m pretty easy to get along with, I tolerate other peoples opinions even when they disagree with me. I vote and I do much more than that.
If anyone is trying to shame, it is this group who descended on me within a 5 minute period with a flurry of down votes and open hostility. I’m genuinely sorry you’re upset about the state of the world, I’m upset too. so why should we try to upset each other more? It doesn’t make sense.
FYI that isn’t me down voting you. I don’t use down votes.
You have no right to hold this over people’s heads, and even implying that someone who does “more than just vote” isn’t doing their part. Some of us have demanding jobs, kids, family that requires care, or other demands that do not allow time for voting instead of attending the occasional local better-timed rally which has already been made extremely difficult in some areas.
In short: get fucked. Go do activism. Don’t try to create some kind of one-upsmanship game that predicates your civic responsibility on someone else’s volunteered time.
Nice of you to assume people who vote don’t do anything else to improve things.
How will you look back on whatever you’re doing right now if you, and people like you, don’t vote and lead to Trump winning? All that work for nothing because you refused to do the one thing that could help everything else you’re trying to do.
I didn’t say that, where did I say anything like that? Why are you trying to villainize me? I want other people to get involve as badly as you want me to vote, is the point I’m trying to make. Save your shame and fear. Try talking to me like a person and not, I don’t know, whatever demon you’re trying to make me out to be
That’s exactly what you said
“I’ll vote if you do more than just vote.”
You’re implying that you know they don’t do more than vote and that implies you assume the same thing of anyone that votes.
That’s an incredibly dim interpretation. I just don’t like being constantly lectured to about voting. It is completely valid to criticize this crappy system and yeah I think its okay to suggest that people do a little more than just vote every 2-4 years.
It seems like people aren’t getting as upset at the idea that I might not vote, as they are at the suggestion that there is some alternative to it, that democracy can be more than voting for one of two deeply corrupt candidates who uphold a deeply corrupt system. I will vote, because its easy.
Get hooked up with Election Science to switch your elections to approval. Pick-all-you-like voting really helps make people feel like they actually got to voice their opinion at the ballot box.
I have friends who are into this kind of electoral work. It would be an improvement.
Yes, actually, everyone urging for pragmatism at the polls should be willing to take steps other than just voting.
What do you suggest? I’m for this. What are good steps? I want to get from where we are to a voting system that allows me to choose a different candidate without wasting my ballot.
Well, for example, a friend of mine is a big proponent of star voting. He joined DSA, which is an org I’m a member of and how we met, promoted it within the chapter and started holding meetings that actually attract a lot of people inside and outside the group. He networks with other activists around the country who have been successful in implementing voting reforms in their state and municipalities, and Now he is trying to build his own local campaign around Star voting. Its slow, steady political work and it is necessary. Build campaigns and get in front of people, do politics. Not everyone is gonna side with you but if it is a good idea, enough people will.
And in the temporary absence or inability to do that, educating yourself and others is vitally important work. But groups like DSA, WFP, and various local progressive campaigns have a low barrier to entry and participation. People learn so much so quickly when we get involved. Its not always easy, and for example, I don’t really even enjoy politics all that much, not like some people who seem to love to debate and get a charge out of doing political work. But I’ve met amazing people and learned so much and orgs are desperate for volunteers. My primary focus is movement building and education, and also I seem to have a knack for building bridges. So if that electoral voting work is what interests you, just go for it, reach out to people and most importantly be patient!
Doubt.
Doubt what? That I’ll vote? Why do you doubt it?
I just want people to be more politically active so that they learn from experience. For some reason certain people get angry when I do, even if I do it nicely, even if I say please
Doubt what?
That you’ll execute on that specific conditional.
Its not conditional, I just want people to be politically active just as much as people want me to vote.
So my doubts have been confirmed. Glad you fell on the side of voting anyways.
If you think I’m being ridiculous, I could flip through my history and find a dozen folks who would unironically holdfast to the letter of your original comment.
What do you mean your doubts have been confirmed?
Look at the other comments on this thread, the incredible hostility my innocuous comment got. So that road goes both ways. If I reacted to the way I got jumped on here, I’d probably set up camp in the not-voting bloc too.
So is your vote contingent on whether people in this thread demonstrate that they have/will “do more than just vote”? If they don’t, will you abstain from voting?
I guess I’m unclear.
< someone who thinks going to grammable rallies and left signaling online counts as “more than voting”
Going to rallies is good, but I’m actually extremely skeptical of online “activism”. I actually don’t have a benchmark for what " counts as more," but I want people to have actual experience doing political work, which looks different for everyone. I find the most value in the discussions that come from regular working people, educating themselves and each other.
Why do you want me to be a hypocrite? Do you actually believe that nothing exists beyond the bare minimum? But I remember feeling this deep dark cynicism about politics at certain times in my life too. So hopefully you are on a road that leads you away from cynical otherizing and you discover the communities of volunteers that hopefully exist very close to you, so you are able to have some of these experiences.
At which point you might look back on these moments of cynicism with disappointment, as I look back on my mine. Its okay though, the system is supposed to instill these feelings of frustration and alienation into people, so it isn’t really your fault. But in order to build a movement we need people doing work they are passionate about and I hope you find work like that and join soon.
It’s more than nothing at all. Are you suggesting we should just vote and otherwise lay down and wait for fascism to descend upon us?
I’m saying that if you mother fuckers didn’t have to be dragged kicking and screaming to fill a piece of paper out every four years, we’d have never gotten this far with.
Forget Hillary, Bernie could have won the primary if y’all spent the energy on voting that y’all bring to whining endlessly about how your privilege blinds you to how much it changes for people who need it the most.
i like this one, this one is good.
(guy beating you with a hammer) this will hurt worse if the other guy gets the hammer next
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I would like to stop voting for people who beat me with hammers, personally. I don’t think voting for the guy beating me with a hammer is going to get him to stop beating me with a hammer.
You have the choice of picking which guy and which hammer. You can abstain, but you’re still getting a beating.
What difference is there, then? Why would I participate in this farcical excuse for a political system?
Lighter hammer. Less pain.
This has to be a joke, you’re joking right?
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I am not ever voting for Joe Biden again.
‘again’ acting like an ignorant jackass like yourself had ever voted for him in the first place. If you’re even an American and eligible to vote.
stfu and fuck right off.
2008, I didn’t know back then that he literally had a hand in almost all the country’s problems and several that directly impacted me or people I know.
It’s an easy problem to solve, just run a different guy.
Holy moly you did it, you solved all the problems.
you should run for the DNC board.
It’s an easy problem to solve, just run a different guy.
Deal, how do I do that?
You can’t pick who the democrats run, but you can not vote for their candidate when he’s terrible.
Yeah, that’s what the primary is for.
In the general, why would I vote in any way that does not directly contribute to ensuring that Trump is not elected?
I mean, if you don’t have any moral qualms about voting for a politician like Biden you’d have to have your eyes cast farther out than trump to justify say casting ballot for PSL or even just leaving the presidential field blank.
If though you genuinely believe trump is a real imminent danger to democracy and whatever other material and immaterial things you hold dear, why are you worried about how people vote?
You saw what happened last time he was declared the loser of an election. Just this week he said he’d do it again.
No amount of voting is gonna restore people’s faith in the electoral system and you’re getting another j6 if he’s not declared the winner. If you think it’s gonna be a fizzle like in 2021 then building networks of resilience with the people around you is much more important than voting. They might not take over anything and get repelled by the capitol police, but there will be unrest and confusion and it’s more important that you have built strong relationships and preparedness with the people around you for that confusing and frightening time. Heck, you might be in a place where the electric boogaloo try to take over infrastructure and government at local or state level, then it’s even more important.
If you think it’s more than a fizzle, that we really could see a coup of the us government, what do you care how people voted? It’s not like some magic margin will convince that cohort that they were wrong and Biden is actually the guy and trump lost fair and square. The fix is in. No one’s gonna believe vote tallies. If you really think we’re staring down the barrel of a honest to goodness takeover of the federal government, don’t even waste time chastising me for not voting for genocide Joe.
You need to be counting your supplies, making sure your potable water is getting rotated, cleaning your guns and most importantly, helping your neighbors and people around you.
Now if you think that all sounds like crazy talk, and America isn’t actually on the brink of fascism, maybe you would think it better to deny the democrats your vote until they actually run a candidate you can stand on a platform you like.
There are 2 potential outcomes for the general election, and many fights to continue.
Of those 2 outcomes, which will provide the more advantageous political terrain to have those battles on?
If you think it’s gonna be a fizzle like in 2021 then building networks of resilience with the people around you is much more important than voting.
Why are you pretending these are mutually exclusive?
Hell, none of what you said is mutually exclusive with voting for Biden.
We should be prepared for all eventualities. You can take a few hours out of one day counting your bullets to go cast a vote that might save democracy.
Every President I’ve ever voted for has lost in my state. So if you want me to vote for Joe Biden, that’s fine. But when he loses in my state, its on your head.
No, it very literally is on the residents of your state who didn’t vote for him’s heads.
Get a grip lmao
voting combined with superstition… Great!!!111
You really gonna show us.
Pst, Bidens stance on Isreal was well known before the 2020 election.
Yeah if I’d known he wasn’t just Obamas weird old man vp I wouldn’t have voted for him in 2008 either.
Please, tell me. What is Obamas stance on isreal?
It wasn’t aligned with mine, but I bought into “hope and change” lol.
So you vote based on slogans alone and I’m suppose to give a shit about your opinion?
I was a lot different sixteen years ago. It was more than the slogans too, before everything got watered down the rhetoric was what I had heard in the 90s but “we’re actually gonna do it this time”. Especially coming out of bush 2.
Not sure what you’re getting at here though.
I guess what I’m getting at is you still have some maturing to do.
Vote how ya like, but consider using the extra free time to campaign for electoral reform in your state. How we vote is controlled at the state level, so we don’t need to wait for federal reform to do something about First Past The Post voting.
That way there is a little bit bigger chance a 3rd party more to your liking would be created. Nothing is for certain, but this is our one life so we gotta take the shot.
That’s never gonna happen and there already is a third party to my liking.
I will not vote for a candidate I don’t support who’s running on a platform against my interests.
Trump supporter.
I’m not going to vote for trump.
If you don’t try to stop Trump, you’re a collaborator.
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I love when there’s a comment that’s so wrong it’s not even necessary to post anything disagreeing with it
Like what’s the point. I’m gonna come in here with some kind of fact check like “As a matter of fact, Biden has NOT tried to order the National Guard to fire on the Palestine protestors with live ammunition! Or told his followers to attack the capitol to kill anyone who stands in the way of him seizing power anyway, if he loses in November. It’s a common misconception I know!”
Woaw, the lifelong politition is more underhanded and “Respectable” than the blohard gameshow host, imagine that! They both still treat people like things, there’s blood on their hands. The methodology and scope is different.
Biden works through the existing structures; sacrificing children, families, communities overseas.
Trump gets a half dozen of his sycophants trampled in a sports riot.
In terms of domestic policy, they both have more in common than in difference.
sports riot
🧐
Enhance
that’s what jan 6th was
a real coup is when the military overthrows an elected body. It is not a bunch of dorks in costume wandering around an antichamber
wandering around
Enhance
Have you given this level of scrutiny to every life lost in Palestine?
I feel like I talked about this before
Biden has NOT tried to order the National Guard to fire on the Palestine protestors with live ammunition
Caring about Palestinian lives is a big reason why I think Trump coming to power again would be a disaster.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-israel-finish-problem-gaza-1234981038/
https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/muslim-ban-what-just-happened
But anyway, enhance
https://www.newsweek.com/pence-refusing-get-secret-service-car-jan-6-chilling-raskin-1700341
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_of_the_January_6_United_States_Capitol_attack
Enhance
“January 6th was just a guided tour”
This and other comedic hits originally produced by the GOP covered by today’s hottest artist; tHe TaNkIeS
a real coup is
No true attack on democracy lol
Coups are apparently only a coup when the coup is successful huh? What a brainless comment…
I genuinely cannot comprehend how uneducated and uninformed one must be to think Biden has done the same or worse than Trump LOL.
Have you tried deliberately ignoring 2017-2021 and literally everything Donald has ever said, like that guy is?
The problem is that from an anti-capitalist perspective, any pro-capital candidate is completely unacceptable. We have never really been given the option for anything else.
Obviously there are degrees of wrong, but man, it really isn’t a good situation to be in to have to vote for one degree of wrong over the other. Even if it is multitudes of shades worse than the other.
I don’t find it productive to blame the voter for our situation. All you are doing is alienating would-be allies on the left.
but man, it really isn’t a good situation to be in to have to vote for one degree of wrong over the other
That’s literally how democracy works. That’s the only possible way for it to work. You must compromise somewhere.
You are either a Russian troll or you have fallen victim to the trolling and have been indoctrinated.
Biden is orders of magnitude a better choice than Trump who is literally the closest political figure to Hitler I have seen in my life…
Biden is orders of magnitude a better choice than Trump
How Israel tortures Palestinians
Israeli officers went on to teach one method of torture to American occupation forces in Iraq torturing detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison.
Dubbed “the Palestinian chair,” according to Eric Fair, a former American interrogator at the prison, the stress position has detainees crouch their bodies on the chair, with their weight centered on their thighs.
“They call it the Palestinian chair,” Fair wrote in his memoir “Consequence,” referring to two American army sergeants.
“They say the Israelis taught them how to build it during a joint training exercise. I assume it’s called the Palestinian chair because that’s who was forced to sit in it,” he wrote.
“They say everyone breaks in the chair.”
In his memoir, Fair describes the self-disgust he went on to live with having witnessed a detainee tortured in the Palestinian chair.
“Witnessing a man being tortured in the Palestinian chair requires the witness to either seek justice or cover his face. … I’ll spend the rest of my life covering my face,” he wrote.
“Having seen the Palestinian chair, it’s impossible to deny that it has all been wrong.”
So we’re using Bush era torture to justify inaction against fascism? Idk man seems a little weird.
I get voting isn’t enough and half the problem is people often limiting their involvement in society to a ballot once every four years, but I’d really like to prevent The Palestinian Chair from being used on anyone deemed an enemy of the state by a man who is talking about deporting 11 million people.
Democrats have been wholly inactive on facsism. Weve held power for four years and should have done literally anything about the looming fascist threat instead of sitting on our hands. The fact that Trump is even on the ballot, and not behind bars, is a damning indictment of Democrats’ spinelessness in the face of problems.
It should be horrifying that we’ve let democracy be on the ballot.
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can you elaborate on this as a pro-Trump argument
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No one supports that logic lol.
It’ll be the same shit and more. We all know there is gonna be more. The Republicans are telling us to our face. Really is crazy how anti gun the democrats are even after the events of the last 8 years. Some of us aren’t privileged to be on the bottom of the Republicans hit list.
First Past The Post voting: Heads we tie, tails we lose. Wanna play this game for the rest of our nation’s existence?
Really is crazy how anti gun the democrats are even after the events of the last 8 years. Some of us aren’t privileged to be on the bottom of the Republicans hit list.
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I used to also subscribe to this idea, treating Trump as a wake up call for the left in the US, but clearly this didn’t happen in his first term.
There’s no large-scale support for the left, barely any effective organization, very few left-wing politicians who could actually do anything. If Trump got a second term, the response would likely not be any different.
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Check your co2 detectors.
Why isn’t there other options ? 2 is not enough !
Because our current voting system is “first past the post”. And that it eventually leads to an inevitable 2 party system.
This video is one of my favorites that explain this problem. https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo?si=ri9DbpvXxjyRonN3
luckily, your vote only really matters if you live in a swing state
🥲
Then vote and make your state a swing state. Tf?
I’ve been voting all my life, silly. This is statistics, not a TV show where the power of believing in yourself magically saves the day.
Ironically the more people that listen to your advice, the less your advice is accurate.
It’s almost like you’re bait and switching logic for emotional reactionism.
I’ve seen this play before. Let me guess, you’d say Biden is a genocidal monster singlehandedly genociding Palestine, and also a useless fool who can hardly function, right?
Not how that works.
I don’t think you have the authority to speak on that based on your previous comments.
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Your vote matters regardless of where you live in the US. City, County, and State elections are extremely important.
I never claimed that, the image was talking about presidential elections.
Unless you live in a swing state, you’re not changing jack with you vote – not without a whole lot of community organizing, something us Americans are just famous for…
If we had 2 more Dem senators at any one of a dozen points in the past 20 years, the world would be a much better place.
Down ballot is very important no matter where you live. If you’re conscious enough to recognize your vote for Biden won’t tip the scales you should be conscious enough to know your vote could be very important for other candidates on the ballot.
Disregarding the down ballot issues, this is an incredibly myopic viewpoint.
States change affiliation. It takes time. And a red state that is less red than the previous election? That gets noticed. Policies can shift, slowly. More local offices will be challenged.
Comment more drivel 🤣😂😭
Maybe be mad at the dems for doing literally nothing to get votes rather than people that don’t want to vote for genocide?
You don’t get the choice of no genocide. You get the choice between some genocide far away, or lots of genocide far away and some more at home.
I suppose that not voting is a choice, but that choice isn’t “I don’t want genocide”, that choice is “I don’t care how much genocide we have”.
You don’t get the choice of no genocide
If genocide is an inevitability, that means that the US is a fascist state which must be overthrown by any means necessary, and any farcical “elections” between two people who support genocide are a joke that should not be legitimized through participation!
The fact that you’re defending genocide as an inevitability is, in fact, a perfect demonstration of the harm caused by this very participation! The reason that you’ve taken such an abhorrent position is because you’ve centered the US political system as an immovable object. But the real immovable object should be… STOPPING GENOCIDE!If your political project cannot draw a hard line against endorsing genocide, then it is worthless!
Ok that’s cool and all, so if voting doesn’t matter can you please vote for the option that results in fewer dead children? It’s like 1 day, and then you can go back to working on your glorious revolution the rest of the time.
The explanation for why I won’t has already been presented! Let’s think back to something that was said earlier…
If genocide is an inevitability, that means that the US is a fascist state which must be overthrown by any means necessary, and any farcical “elections” between two people who support genocide are a joke that should not be legitimized through participation!
The fact that you’re defending genocide as an inevitability is, in fact, a perfect demonstration of the harm caused by this very participation! The reason that you’ve taken such an abhorrent position is because you’ve centered the US political system as an immovable object. But the real immovable object should be… STOPPING GENOCIDE!If your political project cannot draw a hard line against endorsing genocide, then it is worthless!
Cool cool cool so do you mind doing me a solid and - just humoring me here - casting a ballot for “fewer dead innocents and continuation of Democracy” in this farcical system? I mean sure it’s all a joke and pointless, and yeah let’s get on with the business of destroying the system and whatnot. But like for just a few hours, since it doesn’t matter anyway, can’t hurt to throw a ballot in, right?
Surely the other 365 days and 20 hours of breaking down the system more than offsets this tiny, minor, performative participation in it?
(What can I do? No matter what I try, they’re just ignoring and refusing to engage with anything I say! It’s like I’m not even in this conversation!)
Uhh, let’s try this again. Centering the US political system as an immovable object that you must participate in means defending morally abhorrent positions, while also legitimizing it. So no, I will not be voting for anyone who supports genocide, because it’s wrong to do so.
I think this is my favorite thread on Lemmy so far lmao.
Then it’s complacency. Your protest is not saying you don’t want genocide. Your protest is saying you’re fine with whatever level of genocide we get. Driving transgender Americans to suicide, if not outright hunting them for sport, would just be an added bonus.
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One of two people are going to win. You can have Joe Biden, or you can gamble that Donald “Israel should finish the job” Trump, who kicked off 2017 with an unconstitutional “Muslim ban,” will do a complete 180 this time.
Protip: it seems to be the lefties who dislike genocide and Trumpanzees have oppositional defiant disorder, so it certainly will not be getting better under Donald.
It’s fucking weird to pretend you dislike genocide while agitating for an openly racist authoritarian insurrectionist to take office. Like were you asleep for the 20th Century portion of history class or have the middle schools not gotten to that part yet?
If you need anything more than “the other candidate is a fascist running openly on a platform of doing fascism” to do everything you can to vote and get others out to the polls too, you may turn your ally badge in and sit at the table with all the other fascists.
Formal proposal that all the grammable marches and rallies post security that check for proof of having voted to get let in, sounds like a club bouncer, but these people are coming hard with “bachelorette party at a gay club” energy anyways.
If you think supporting genocide is not a fascist position, then I don’t know what to tell you.
