In California they have prisoners fight the wildfires. I find it sickening, but it’s a popular program. I wonder if that’s where this result comes from. The wildfires get worse and worse and they need bodies to sacrifice. Depressing.
My thoughts as well.
It’s the wildfires. They don’t want to pay more in taxes to hire more firefighters, at least that’s what makes sense to me.
It’s still an abominably shitty thing and, IMHO, a human rights violation too.
It’s at least a volunteer program, they aren’t directly forcing people to fight the fires. A lot of people, the prisoners included, consider it a way of repaying their debt to society. I’m pretty sure I don’t agree with a great deal of the situation in which it exists, but I do think that if I was in prison, being able to to something, feel like I still matter, would be some comfort.
I assure you that’s not what it feels like.
That must be nice for you
They don’t want to pay more in taxes to hire more firefighters, at least that’s what makes sense to me.
california is like richer than most countries in the world. dnc and its upper class base is more rotten that i had thought. no wonder 15 million democrats don’t want to vote for these cronies.
That’s a volunteer program. This is inside the prison work and comes with physical and mental punishment if you refuse.
Not exactly “voluntary” in a meaningful way if the alternative is in-prison work or punishment.
“Not coercion, volunteers”
That is true yes. It’s also worth extra “good time” which can get you released from the system earlier.
Edit - I be clear I mean, “put your life in danger to escape this hellhole faster” is a whole other level of coercion.
Ya, volunteer or get sent to solitary. Good choice there.
Oh no you seem to think I’m defending this so let’s break this down.
You can circumvent the normal prison labor system by volunteering to fight fires. This comes with perks and good time. Or you can exist in the normal prison labor system making products under threat of mental or physical abuse.
So joining the firefighters is also extremely coercive because it requires you to risk your life for your freedom, privileges, and keeping you away from the abusive labor system the other prisoners exist in.
None of this is good.
Looks like people voted no to slavery, but the question asked do you not support slavery.
The answer should have been (yes) I do not support slavery.
Instead (no) I do not support slavery.
I can image a good chunk of people got confused with the wording, and I myself am still confused reading it.
Are you sure? It seems pretty straightforward to me. “This amendment would bar slavery and involuntary servitude.” It’s the first sentence.
I bet the wording on the ballot was different. Similar election results sites for my local ballot measures hasve greatly simplified the language the ballot had (which honestly is probably how ballot measures should be written)
Or maybe Americans are largely shitty people. Stop trying to excuse the behavior and accept it for what it is
Well yeah, obviously, but the wording of a question is often manipulated to lead people to different results. That’s all
You know, reading that today, and putting myself in the shoes of an overworked, everyday American, it seems the wording does leave something to be desired. I wonder how that vote would have turned out if the question were: “Do you support slavery as long as the person was convicted of a crime and is in prison?”
With the amount of people that voted for Trump I don’t have much confidence in the literacy of randos
Your wording is more confusing to me
This is the ballot text, it’s not really confusing at all.
The link you supplied clears it all up. No way anyone could have misunderstood the vote, the ballot even outlines what yes and no mean in the context.
I think I now agree with what krashmo said in the thread below.
“Or maybe Americans are largely shitty people. Stop trying to excuse the behavior and accept it for what it is”
The props are worded so insanely that without hours of prep, I would vote incorrectly.
My state banned ranked choice voting by an insane margin because it was worded like “only citizens should be allowed to vote, and each citizen only gets one vote each!” Literally two Google searches would clear it up if people had more critical thinking skills
That’s what I’d call a rigged election.
This is also one of the downsides of citizen ballot initiatives. The proponent can usually word things however they want.
In Mass., I know they have a strict judicial review for the language. It requires a clear and fair statement, and it gets refined through a unique type of litigation.
A “resistance” against the will of the majority is generally called a terrorist organization.
Progressive Americans, face it: Most of the people around you want this.
The first part is not true. The White rose and the french resistance in ww2 are both called “resistance”. So the distinction between terrorists and resistance is in the eye of the historian.
I’m inclined to just let them have it at this point. I’m done fighting. Give me the coup de grace and let it be swift.
This is the first result I checked for when I woke up this morning, and I nearly vomited when I saw the breakdown. Half the vote is still uncounted, but I don’t think the result will change. I’m ashamed of my neighbors.
To be fair, and that’s being very fair, it does end with “allowing involuntary servitude as a punishment for crime” and a case could be made for confusing wording.
This is the ballot text, it’s not really confusing at all.
Oh wow, that’s actually explained very well. Fair enough, y’all just want slavery I guess lol
But only as a punishment for a crime. Like the new felony theft of a toothbrush from the other proposition we have definitely passed. (Made what was previously misdemeanor theft into felony theft, and yes we still have a 3 strikes law to imprison you for life.)
California is not some progressive bastion. It’s a conservative state that doesn’t bother the LGBTQ community.
I keep telling people I think it’ll flip in our lifetime. Too many kids growing up without the faintest idea of how wealthy they are in the bay (and the valley/NorCal are conservative anyway). Unearned wealth directly leads to conservatives for a lot of people
I think it’s really just an obvious proof of the complete and total lack of reading comprehension that most citizens have here.
I especially enjoy it losing with literally no opponents and no arguments against.
Right?
Fucking right?
The Arguments section is unfortunately left out on actual ballots. I could see a lot of the less research-inclined citizens interpret that as simple community service and not straight up indentured servitude.
Unfortunately, most things can be attributed to stupidity rather than malice. Had they put the word slavery on the ballots I’d hope we’d see a better split
Everyone gets a booklet with all the analysis and arguments in it, weeks before the election. There is very little that could have been done to make this more clear. At some point it’s just reprehensible. We don’t look back at chattel slavery and hem and haw about education. Neither should we do so here.
I’m aware. That’s why I say the less inclined. Gotta ask ourselves how many are actually reading the booklet or even taking more than 5 seconds to process the ballot blurb.
Google is also right at everyone’s fingertips yet misinformation is still prevalent everywhere. Some people are just stupid.
Unfortunately, there are lots of them.
Call for resistance? You can get enough Americans to get off their arse to vote every four years?
You can’t get most Americans to stop playing Fortnight or watching Dancing with the stupid Stars to even pay attention to the country
They should combine it with selling a new iPhone on election day. People have time to camp out for weeks in front of the store for that.
It hasn’t been called yet but I certainly didn’t have California votes to be a slave state on my 2024 bingo card.
People likely voted for not repealing the provision allowing involuntary servitude as a punishment for crime and not for keeping slavery.
Whoever thought combining those two things in one vote was a good idea is an idiot
Its a form of slavery…
No, it’s a form of punishment. It can be avoided by not committing crimes.
You must be either young and ignorant or don’t know how crime is set up here in America.
Like the crime of not being paid enough to afford housing?
In what 3rd world country you have to commit crimes to afford housing?
In the several states where it is a crime to be homeless. Such as the 24 states with laws restricting “loitering” in public spaces. Or the 16 states that do the same, but in all spaces. Or the 15 states where pitching a tent in public locations is illegal. Or the 4 states that do that, but in all spaces. Or the 6 states where sleeping or lying down in public is illegal. Or the 4 states where it is illegal to sleep in a vehicle.
Because no innocent person is ever wrongly locked up, right?
So release everyone from prison, because a minority of inmates are wrongly locked up.
You said slavery could be avoided by not committing crimes. I showed that is not true.
Nah, slavery is still slavery. Tons of US businesses are currently propped up by prisoner workers who they don’t have to pay practically anything, and who can’t walk off the job, and who can’t really complain too much, AND, conveniently, aren’t employed by that company so they can bypass labor laws like break times, safety regulations, and working hours.
^ Clown shit ^
It’s slavery as punishment. Which is still slavery.
It can be avoided by not committing crimes.
In a justice system functioning perfectly? Sure! In the US one, on the other hand…
You should read literally anything about the US prison industry, mass incarceration, or war on drugs. The fact that America has the world’s largest prison population, that companies make money from this, and that the people who get imprisoned are largely non-white couldn’t possibly be related right?
You’re making the following statements, lmk if this is inaccurate:
-Involuntary servitude is not considered slavery, but rather a punishment.
-Involuntary servitude is OK as long as it’s used on prisoners (those who have been convicted of crimes).
Inference made: Constitutional protections and rights do NOT apply to those going against the rule of law.
Questions for you:
-If involuntary servitude isn’t considered slavery, then what would you consider slavery to be?
-Is this a form of punishment that helps to reform and correct those deemed currently unsuitable for society (without going into the meaninglessness of Orwellian naming conventions, they are called the “Department of Corrections”, aren’t they?)
-Do you think the rule of law always corresponds with ethical standards?
-I always like to ask myself the following: Who stands to benefit from allowing slaver- I mean, “involuntary servitude” to continue to be allowed? Who stands to benefit from all this cheap labor?
I’m curious as to your answers here.
I’m curious as to your answers here.
The thing is: it is not black-or-white but always and heavily depends on context. But let me try to clarify my point of view.
Involuntary servitude is not considered slavery, but rather a punishment.
If someone commits a crime and is sentenced to do community service for example, then it is a punishment, yes. In a modern society they are not forced (i.e. with actual psychologic/financial/physical force) but rather given the option to either do community service (or whatever they were sentenced to by the judge, like for example an arsonist has to help rebuilding what they burned down) or chose not to do it. It this case they either have to pay a certain amount of money or they’re going to jail instead.
Involuntary servitude is OK as long as it’s used on prisoners (those who have been convicted of crimes).
Yes, in two ways. First, it is part of their correction process by giving them a structured day, a responsibility, something to be proud of (like getting a qualification or being able to have some form of apprenticeship helping them to gain a foothold in society, etc., etc.). And second as part of their imprisionment. Also mainly to have a structured day and having them away from their cell so the prison staff can search it for contraband, the cleaning staff to do their work, etc. The prisoners will also get some money from it for being able to buy “luxury goods” in the prison kiosk (i.e. goods that are not provided by the prison, like chocolate, good/better coffee, etc.).
They’re also not “forced” to do this. If they decide not to, then they usually get more strict rules, like less “free” time in the courtyard, not allowed to have regular visitors, no day parole, earlier cell confinement and less time to see other inmates, etc.
what would you consider slavery to be
Forcing someone to do work for you, using physical (threatening with, or using violence), psychological (talk them into doing it, yelling at them, bully them, etc.), or financial (exploiting their poverty) force and/or ignoring safety risks and/or ignoring health issues and risks.
So: inmates are “forced” doing work in the context I described: not slaves. Poor exploited locals building soccer stadiums in Dubai: slaves.
Appreciate you clarifying. I have a better understanding of your views than I did before.
We seem to disagree on what the use of “force” constitutes exactly. In my opinion, having someone have to choose between what most would regard as basic amenities or working as cheap labor for some large conglomerate is considered force.
But, that’s my opinion. And you’re entitled to yours. I’m glad you could explain your position more clearly so that I could understand opposing viewpoints.
It is literally slavery.
Look at this guy over here who thinks there aren’t any innocent people in prison.
Let me know if you change your position on that if you’re ever convicted and sentenced to prison for a crime you did not commit.
Maybe we should be treating people humanely regardless of their criminal record? They are in prison to become reformed citizens, not to be our slave laborers.
Now is when you can realize you’re wrong, learn, and edit your comment.
Teach me, oh glory American. I am just a stupid German.
Teach you how forcing someone to do labor and be treated like a financial asset is slavery?
Well that’s easy. You open up your English textbook, you look up the word slavery, and you look at the definition.
Here, I’ll do the work for you:
“plural noun: slaves 1. a person who is forced to work for and obey another and is considered to be their property; an enslaved person.”
Or do you mean, how is this situation slavery? It’s also pretty simple. The American prison system is for-profit. The government is incentivized to arrest more people because they have minimum quotas to meet when putting people in prison. Otherwise they pay extra on the contracts. The prison employees are considered assets in this situation. And those prison employees are put to work with no or little pay.
But I do understand. English is a very complicated language and the intricacies of the US prison system are not well known in other countries, I imagine. Thank you for asking for help.
Oh sweet summer child.
You can be enslaved in the US for the crime of not having enough money to afford a place to live.
I always forget you Americans hate social welfare systems.
Maybe it’d be a good idea to familiarize yourself with the problems in the US before making sweeping statements about them, in that case.
Yeah unlike all those people I see living in the streets in Germany, who do that by choice
…what other slavery currently exists (legally) that this would have addressed? This isn’t combining two things. Barring slavery in any form includes punitive servitude. Calling them separate issues is like calling “we should fix this leak” a separate concern from “this pipe should not have any leaks”.
Calling them separate issues is like calling “we should fix this leak” a separate concern from “this pipe should not have any leaks”.
Yes, those are two different things that should be addressed separately.
One is emergency plumbing, the other is maintenance.
Man dirk, I’m embarrassed for you and your family 🤦
I’m more embarrassed for the teachers who seem to have failed them.
$10 says the teachers tried. Getting blood out of a rock is hard, never mind getting imagination into one.
Fair point.
Oh go away, they did not vote for “slavery”. They voted to allow making convicted felons work as part of their sentence. It’s slavery in the same sense that working to buy food and pay rent is “slavery”. Metaphorically yes, but calling it slavery devalues the experiences of all the people who were kidnapped from their homes, brought here in chains on ships, and sold in a market.
Hey, would you look at that, chattel slavery isn’t the only type. That is amazing, no one could have guessed that until right now, after I looked it up. It is almost like it being called chattel slavery implies multiple forms of slavery. Wow, this is so new, and novel.
Yeah it’s a big world! Here’s another new thing for you - look up “Indentured servitude”. It’s where you are forced to work to pay off a debt or something, but it’s not “slavery” and nobody owns you. Kind of like in prison.
Look up the 13th amendment, and why they had to write in an exclusionary clause to it because, even people from a time of chattel slavery practice, knew this was slavery too, and not indentured servitude, which stayed legal for decades afterwards! The factors making it slavery are quite eloquently explained, namely that indentured servitude was a contract the indentured servant had to agree to! Isn’t that neat? It wasn’t legally forced on them! Wanna know something else cool? The fact that it is a contractual agreement is STILL the definition!
Just like uncle Tom, working in the house so he could make a living…as a slave. But hey, they fed and clothed him, so is it still slavery?
“Just like?” I dunno, was Tom in prison for committing crimes or did somebody just kidnap him or his ancestors and say okay you’re a slave now? If you’re going to ignore that difference this conversation is pointless.
The better question is, was he in prison due to unjust laws and unfair application of law due to the colour of his skin? Fuck it, they’re locked up, force to him work regardless.
That’s always A question in an individual case, but assuming convicts are innocent isn’t rational.
And neither is forcing them into labour
Right because the US is known for having a very fair “justice” system
Something something 13th Amendment?
Yes, let’s read the 13th Amendment together: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
Notice that two things are listed - slavery and involuntary servitude. I define convict labor as involuntary servitude. The 13th Amendment doesn’t back up either interpretation.
Yeah guy, we are both referencing the same idea, but from distinctly different perspectives, it would seem. You seem to like the punishment clauses, whereas I would argue that an Amendment ratified in 1865 is very much due for an overhaul.
Minimum wage who?
Pass a minimum wage law for prisoners and then you’ll have a point.
You’re a terrible human being.
I wonder who is disproportionately sent to jail…?
I think it’ll be a few days before everything is counted, since California is pretty slow. That said, conservative turnout seems pretty high so I wouldn’t be surprised if it fails.
Yeah, we generally are an example of the 5 day rule as I saw a text book call it. Basically nothing is certain until five days after an election. The reason for V days is because it covers a full work week roughly.
Too bad the same can’t be said about the national election this time. Looks like the rent control one isn’t going well either, which is bananas given a majority of voters are renters.
There was a massive push in the last week to tell people it would end all new housing developments, triple rent, and make us all homeless. All of the major newspapers and the governor came out on that line.
Which is ridiculous of course but there was no time to refute it.
I didn’t know the governor said that. And the cons so exist, but really only to landlords and rich people like him.
I’ll be honest that rent control isn’t perfect though. A band aid at best.
In character for the US. Now it just has to play a Civil War movie and some patriotic montage to act like it isn’t there.
Isn’t work in prisons usually a privilege? Is this something that is actually used? What happens when someone just doesn’t do what is asked of them?
That’s bad behavior and more time.
Cool, thanks for the info. So, for everything except extreme cases where someone is going to be imprisoned until they die it is negatively impactful.
They used to do “hard time” and make prisoners crush rocks with hammers to make gravel.
Solitary confinement, bread and water meals, and even beatings by guards have been reported by prisoners.
What were the ad campaigns like around this proposition?
There were none. It had no opposition either.
I dunno, I voted for it, but California has HUGE conservative areas and the notion of working off your sentence isn’t exactly new or seen as particularly cruel by most. Also the comparisons to slavery will fall on deaf ears because it’s as much slavery as imprisoning people is kidnapping.
If you are OK with prisons, forced labor within them isn’t going to seem significantly harsher.
