it’s stressful, spending a lifetime pretending to not be as sensitive as a de-scrotum’d testicle
So your response to an article about how men don’t talk about their feelings is “Ha Ha men are just sensitive snowflakes”?
I wonder why men don’t talk about their feelings more 🤔🤔
do you always just make up completely different meanings for the things you read? or only when it’s something about men being sensitive and trying to pretend not to be?
Hey, I think some nuance was lost over the imperfect medium of text. Here’s what OP is getting at—when someone ignores their emotions, they don’t just go away. Emotions are just signals from the body about what is good for it and what is bad for it. Emotions are the body telling someone what it needs. If emotions are ignored, then the body isn’t getting what it needs, so it sends stronger signals. When I don’t eat, I get hungrier (until I start starving and my body begins eating itself, anyways). When I don’t tend to an injury, it hurts more. When I’m resentful and I don’t do anything about my feelings of resentment, those feelings grow in strength and force.
Any person who has been told by society that they should disregard their emotions will have a body which is screaming its discontent at them. I’m a man and I was raised to hide and repress my feelings (although I was never really into extreme toxic masculinity). It was fucking agonizing, and I became so, so sensitive to things. It took years of therapy for me to learn that the body keeps the score and that I had to feel and express my feelings, just like I had to eat or bandage a cut.
Anyone who has suffered from emotional self-neglect will be sensitive. Western society pushes men to neglect themselves, so those men will be sensitive. That’s all OP meant. Men who accept their emotions for what they are and tend to them will be much less sensitive and will almost certainly be happier people.
Honestly, it’s the
as a de-scrotum’d testicle
part that throws me. Makes it sound like they are comparing having normal human emotions to being as overly sensitive as a bare, unprotected testicle.
Yeah, it’s not (in my opinion) the best way to get the idea across. I read that and immediately thought of how it felt when I was emotionally repressed. To me, a de-scrotumed testicle sounds about right, because even the softest and most gentle care was still rough and painful. I can see how someone could read something much less kind in that phrase, however.
I had to re-read your original comment to fully get your point, but I hear what you’re saying now.
(Or maybe I just need an excuse to dip out of this thread and try to bleach the image of a de-scrotum’d testicle from my brain)
What. You never peeled a grape before?
Most humans are sensitive. It comes from being a social creature
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You ok, boo?
My dude, you need to re-read what OP said and rethink your comprehension of the text.
Maybe I’m just slow, but I don’t get the gist of your remark. You taking a jab at men denying their sensitivity or at men being too sensitive? The two things are sometimes two sides of the same coin I guess.
men denying their sensitivity
mostly this, but
men being too sensitive?
for too many men apparently any amount of sensitivity is too much
but from my experience, it’s the guys who are most obsessed with how their manliness is perceived by the rest of the world who are the most sensitive of all. and they’re also the most miserable
I read it a nut punch to thise who deny any sensitivity, as they are more sensitive than a wind vane.
Never seen neither of them cry, so 🤷🏼♂️
So who did you see crying?
🤦🏽♂️ ahem Weathervanes don’t cry, they simply stand in the direction the wind blew. Those poor bastards that claim they don’t “feel” couldn’t stand it if everyone knew.
Weather vanes do cry when they haven’t been oiled.
Same as toxic males, I hear. Always grease your good boy.
Or they take their role as provider more seriously and when they fail, they do what they see as only way out…
But sure… It is about being “sensentive” 🤡
Please reconsider this. The sensitivity that OP is talking about is like the hunger that a starving person feels. Men who haven’t ever been allowed to deal with their feelings will be more sensitive as their bodies scream at them to acknowledge years resentment, burden, anger, anxiety, and fear. A man committing suicide to get away from emotional deprivation is like a starving person committing suicide even though they could have access to food. Men don’t have to be providers for others, and it they choose to, they don’t have to suffer silently and thanklessly under a yoke as the world whips them. You can take care of someone while also getting your emotional needs met.
Yoke*
But, thank you for taking the time to text this all to a perfect stranger. 💜
Grr, stupid autocorrect! Thanks for the heads-up, imma fix that now.
Men who haven’t ever been allowed to deal with their feelings
The only people not allowing this are themselves… i am sorry these bootlickers can’t grow a backbone and act in their own self interest.
Blaming “toxic” masculinity because losers can’t think for themselves is is toxic muscularity in of itself.
Serving some rich dude’s need is not masculine, ie “I work hard to provide but I never see my kids is not a flex btw.” it is not masculine.
I don’t know how we got to the point where bootlicking became toxic masculinity. Any man with self respect treats other men telling them what to do as a threat actor lol
I was one of those men, although I was never overtly sexist or misogynistic. I had a quieter form of toxic masculinity, where I always had to have an answer to every question, always had to be dependable and available, always had to be tough and strong. My father raised me that way and spoke out whenever I stepped outside of those lines. Once I moved out on my own, I took up my dad’s place and whipped myself whenever I wasn’t good enough. It took years of failure, pain, and suffering before I really questioned what I was raised to be. From there, it took years of therapy and love from a wonderful person to get to the point where I only occasionally find some of that old programming.
Don’t get me wrong, toxic masculinity is not an excuse for bad behavior. Every person is ultimately responsible for their well-being and for how they treat others. My actions as a young adult caused some real harm, and that’s on me. “Buckling down” and working hard for some shithead boss is not, in general, very good for someone’s well-being. However, it’s a lesson that many boys are taught, and it can be very difficult to break out of childhood conditioning.
it’s a lesson that many boys are taught, and it can be very difficult to break out of childhood conditioning.
no doubt but being a another man’s or society’s bitch, there is nothing masculine about it. i am not sure who came with this wording but it does not make much sense.
it hides what is really happening… bootlicking…
with that being said, a man with kids gonna need to step up and take care of his family that’s just biology. and providing gonna make you slave for daddy but you aint got to larp’s daddy’s koolaid.
So, how long has it been since you’ve had a hug that meant something?
is suicide really the right topic to unfold politics?
Got anything worthwhile to offer, or are you just in line to touch the coffin lid and say the words in the hope that you feel something?
sorry, i was just too irritated by sunzu2’s comment, and - reading their other comments now - their general attitude on male mental health.
and no, i don’t have to hold a lid or say the words to feel the pain, thanks ;)
My apologies, neighbor. I hope you find the joy in life you seek, genuinely. 🙇🏽♂️
what politics?
Uh… You have access to support, friend? 🥹
yeah people i take care of ;)
To clarify a bit, the group is a subset of young men and they arent pretending. Its a matter of how different groups express the symptoms of their disorder. Because a man does not express his depression in a typical way does not mean he is pretending not to be depressed. The article even mentions a retrospective study that looked 3000 men who killed themselves and 60% of those men went to therapy but the issue is that this group presents atypical, externalizing depressive symptoms which can lead to them not being recognized by conventional diagnostic instruments". Therapy is not a one size fits all remedy and its common that a tailored approach is required and instruments be updated.
We dont blame or diminish mentally ill people for being mentally ill. Its that simple.
An evergreen bell hooks quote:
The first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If an individual is not successful in emotionally crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem.
For any men near the beginning of their journey to adopt of a more healthy masculinity, The Will To Change by bell hooks is an excellent read
If anyone’s interested in reading through it with others, we have a book club going for this book right now! It’s a fantastic read so far and we just started!
Yeah, but …hexbear? Ferreal? 🫣
I understand the hesitancy. Hexbear’s not for everyone. If you were only going to interact with a single corner of Hexbear and ignore the rest, this book club would be a good place to do so. It’ll be low on snark and full of people doing earnest discussion.
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I’m not sure what you mean
Everyone involved in the book club is taking it seriously and we’ve had great discussions so far without any irony poisoning. You don’t need to be a commie or an anarchist to get a lot out of the experience, we just want more people who will earnestly engage with the work.
I might, in all honesty, and thank you. I’ll have to go find how thoroughly I’ve blocked that instance (TIL: my filters are not fully synced between devices), but I appreciate knowing this is out there, at the least.
?
At first, I had to question why I was seeing a question like this, then I remembered where I was. But if I start talking trash about dbzer0 like this here, my shit’s finna get pinched.
1.) Yeah, but it’s hexbear.
2.) Use gloves.
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I think that’s a counterproductive response.
The film nights are pretty good too.
Jesus, that cuts. 🥹😶
patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem.
This isn’t exclusive to men, women do this too. Even many that say they want a “sensitive” guy don’t actually in my experience, they want a guy that can be empathetic to others (namely them) but still have no feelings of his own, just try to cry in front of one (especially for anything less than a death of someone close, or as I’ve been told before “yeah we don’t like it when guys cry for stupid reasons but if there’s something like your mom died sure. I want a sensitive guy not a pussy.”)
Call it the patriarchy all you want, but women certainly reinforce it too, IME even some that espouse hatred for it turn around and reinforce it in the same breath.
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals…
There is no non-traditional gender role for a man to assume. A man who does not work and provide, protect and defend is shamed as a deadbeat. His is the only end of the old social contract no one wants to throw away.
Yeah and any woman who doesn’t cook, clean and pop out children is shamed as selfish. Hmm wait, that’s the definition of traditional gender roles and the topic of the article / study, interesting. Guess there’s no alternatives to that for women either. It’s not like a man can’t just be themselves and content with that.
The fuck are you talking about? A woman can go be career driven or whatever. What else is there for a man?
Being literally whatever the hell they want. The world is not black and white.
Society does not permit this and you’re being intellectually dishonest in suggesting otherwise.
My next door neighbor is a stay at home dad what are you on about?
And how long is that going to go on before his wife divorces him out of resentment?
Well, they’ve been together for at least 24 years so idk?
Living the dream
There are, like, literally billions of men who don’t fit this archetype you’re describing. Many of them are beloved and idolized by society. Some are artists, musicians, dancers, writers. Lots are stoners or slackers. Some are clergy or philosophers or historians, and not always drawing steady income. And they can be surrounded by loved ones.
Go be yourself and stop caring about what some narrow slice of society expects.
And this study, that this article is about, specifically shows that believing this nonsense is correlated with suicide. That’s why it’s actually dangerous to try to convince people of this falsehood.
There are fewer than 4 billion men currently alive. And all of those liberal arts majors you just listed? Yeah they’re shamed as losers if their work doesn’t pay. Women don’t stay with the aspiring musician who refuses to get a day job so he can focus on his music but can never seem to land a gig. People idolize SUCCESSFUL artists, musicians, dancers, writers etc. We jail stoners especially if they aren’t white. What are YOU smoking?
There are fewer than 4 billion men currently alive.
Yes, and what percentage are everything that you expect a man to be? There are plenty of men who are smart but not protective, hard working but not high earning, etc.
If your whole definition of a successful man is based on whether a woman will stay with them long term, then first, I’d point out that’s a stupid definition, and second, even if we were to use that definitions there are plenty of ways that marriages fall apart. A man who doesn’t change diapers or won’t clean up after himself is at risk of getting left, no matter how much money he has. Bad communicators are also at risk. Infidelity destroys marriages. So does violence or angry outbursts. These are pretty far removed from what you’re talking about, and men who fall for believing in these rigid gender roles are exactly the type of people who find themselves receiving divorce papers. Plenty of high earning divorced boomer men out there, and there are plenty of happily married men who depend on their wives’ incomes.
Feminism since the 1970s has been advocating for financial independence for women so that they can leave someone regardless of how much they earn.
And more fundamentally, if the sole sign of manhood is being able to stay in a long relationship, then there are a lot of different ways to achieve that. Being authentic to oneself is an important way to have meaningful relationships with friends and families and spouses, and is an important foundation for a successful marriage, too.
Lol ok
Yeah, it’s sick. No man should be expected to be able to provide for a small to large family alone, not in this capitalist society that is designed to grind you into nothing. They should be allowed to enjoy hobbies like cooking, art, and home making. They should be allowed to give and recieve affection. The normal gender roles we were taught are trash. They are not meant for everyone but only for some class of people that existed at one point in time and that even then they were unique in the amount of wealth they all shared.
I would have been that statistic too before I transitioned and found gender roles are fucking dumb
Gender roles are pretty dumb even for people happy living in their birth-assigned gender. But I guess you see it twice as bad2,cause you’ve experienced them from both sides now. Fixing yourself doesn’t fix the world, I guess.
I’d be interested to see what the rates of suicidal ideation are compared between men who do and don’t conform to traditional gender roles. Because there are a lot of contributing factors I can think of off the top of my head, like men who don’t conform as strictly to traditional gender norms are probably more likely to go see a therapist, so they are more likely to see a way out of their situation that doesn’t involve suicide. Also, men who more strictly conform to traditional gender norms probably are more likely to have guns in the home, and (as other studies have shown) men tend to prefer suicide by gun over pills/meds/other methods, so I’m curious if that has an impact as well.
Anecdotally I am both of those. I grew up in a deep south military family, and I used to have a sidearm that I assigned way more of my identity to than I should have and thought about using on myself more than i ever thought about using in any other way. I didn’t try therapy for the first time until my 30s, after I quit working for the airforce. Telling a man he needed therapy where I used to work was an insult no matter the context, and it was an open secret that you’d get fired if you sought any kind of mental healthcare. (not directly, but some security manager somewhere in the system would revoke your clearances and it would domino from there)
I’m still amazed I made it through that; it feels like almost every week I’m still blown away by how much different the world can be when it isn’t just a deluge of bigotry and hatred and doomsday weapons. If you can help it, don’t ever fucking make weapons. No matter how much they offer to pay you or pretend you’re a hero. It’s not worth your will to live
It does, yes
Okay good, thank you. I couldn’t find any info in the originally linked article.
That tracks, traditional gender roles are overly restrictive and force people to deny their needs.
Men, nothing wrong with being masculine if you want, but if a woman demands you “man up” for her at the expense of your emotional needs, you’re better off single.
A long-term study in the US involving around 10,000 young men has already shown that they are more likely to commit suicide over a period of 20 years if they identify strongly with traditional masculine roles. These norms are characterized by ideas that originated from the previously strongly patriarchal social framework. They prescribe the characteristics that men should have and how they should behave. These include, for example, independence, controlling their emotions and not showing their vulnerability. In science, this is summarized under the term traditional masculine ideologies.
Toxic Masculinity is very real.
The Woke is trying to prevent REAL men from exercising their right to unalive themselves!
Yeah because we get in there and GET THE JOB DONE. Women are just “yak yak yak” right guys?
Guys…?
guys…?
AW NO BILLY!?! WHYYYY BILLY WHYYYYY. WHY DIDNT YOU SAY SOMETHING THAT I COULD HEAR OVER THE CONSTANT NEED FOR US TO TALK ABLUT LITERALLY ANYTHING OTHER THAN OUR FEELINGS!?!
as always the problem is capitalism and its highest form, imperialism
Men who don’t conform to traditional gender roles are at a higher risk for being called “ha gay”.
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Wrong.
The manliest thing a man can do is wrestle a bear, ride a tiger, domesticate a wolf, or eat an entire spoonful of cinnamon.
THEN I guess it’s whatever thing you said.
I think it was the old baseball player Thurmon Munson who said “I never feel more like a man than when I’m wearing a dress”.
Would I get downvoted for pointing out that this is one of the reasons I’m a feminist?
Maybe, but if self interest drives a man to solidarity with women to fight against the patriarchy then most of the women I know who actually read feminist theory would agree that it’s a perfectly valid contributing reason.
I think the patriarchy is bad for everyone. There are a lot of dudes who see male feminists as gender traitors, and it’s surprising how many I encounter on Lemmy.
…aaaand downvoted. See?
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They spend their entire life worrying about what everyone, from their family to complete strangers, will allow or not allow them to do. Can’t imagine the stress. So glad my parents raised me to just be myself, do what I want, and tell anyone who complains to fuck off.
Just the ones inclined to suicide.
Not just the ones inclined to suicide. Men from all different personality groups and mental states in the study worried about those thing and killed themselves over those things.
Fuck I just typed out such a long and thoughtful response. It was the perfect balance of addressing all the misconceptions in the comments and giving my opinion on the actual issue without at all relating anything women vs man.
My finger slipped and I hit the back button on jeboa and I lost the whole comment. I’m really feeling the traditional masculine urge to express anger and engage in risky behavior.
