Penn Gilette has always seemed to be driven by a level of honesty and compassion and valued the freedom to choose where to direct that compassion. I think earlier on he viewed other libertarians as having the same level of honest compassion as he does but over time it’s become more and more clear that libertarians are overwhelmingly selfish rich white guys who don’t want to be called Repuiblicans.
I mean in the early 2000s he was calling bullshit on the hysteria over the vaccine autism link saying the alternative of kids dying to preventable diseases is so much worse. He even gave the tenuous link a benefit of the doubt and accepted that even if they did cause autism,t he alternative is so much worse.
There aren’t many people who are willing to evaluate their entire political decisions and come to the conclusion that they were wrong. Even fewer who will admit it publicly. Even fewer still who will accept responsibility and then do something about it.
Of the people I have respectfully disagreed with, the fact that he’s come around is a huge testament to his willingness to be humbled and corrected.
There aren’t many people who are willing to evaluate their entire political decisions and come to the conclusion that they were wrong
I doubt that his ideology actually changed much, but instead he just realized that the Libertarian Party didn’t actually match it like they claimed to do.
The New Hampshire libertarians went full tea party and dragged the rest down with them. I never expected to see anti LGBT rhetoric from a party that enshrined gay rights in their charter way back in 1972, at a time when the Democrats and Republicans were holding hands and chanting “God hates fags” in unison
Yeah I remember when libertarians were “I want a good old fashioned mom and mom Marijuana farm where they defend it with machine guns if they so choose”. And back then my beef with them was climate change requires everyone to work in tandem and is an existential threat. These days, libertarians are Republicans who know to be ashamed to call themselves that
I never thought they were a viable option for taking one of the two main party slots, but I thought they had some good things to say and their voice should be heard. Now they’re just part of the far right noise machine.
DAE DEI IS BAD???
No, LPNH, no I don’t.
They’re not even real NH people-- after the internet was invented all these freaks found each other across the country and made a pact to move to NH. Then there were enough of them to implement all the absolute stupidest of libertarian ideals in one place (not that I have much hope for even the best of their ideals to succeed).
They essentially astroturfed a party and made NH look like shit. Which is why this sweaty mutant is talking about toaster licenses.
Was that when a bunch of libertarians flooded a town as new residents, dismantled the municipal government and ended up being overrun by bears because they didn’t lock up their garbage cans after dismantling the requirements to lock up garbage cans?
he viewed other libertarians as having the same level of honest compassion as he does but over time it’s become more and more clear that libertarians are overwhelmingly selfish rich white guys who don’t want to be called Repuiblicans
I had a similar progression myself when I was in my teens, maybe even early 20s.
The basic principle of libertarianism is appealing: mind your own damn business and I’ll mind mine. And I still agree with that in general — it’s just that a single generality does not make a complete worldview. It took me a while to realize how common it is for self-identifying libertarians to lack any capacity for nuance. The natural extreme of “libertarianism” is just anarchy and feudalism.
In a sane world, I might still call myself a libertarian. In a sane world, that might mean letting people live their own damn lives, not throwing them to the wolves (or more literally, bears ) and dismantling the government entirely.
I’m all for minding my own business, but I also acknowledge that maintaining a functional society is everybody’s business (as much as I occasionally wish I could opt out and go live in a cave).
One problem with libertarianism and the other selfish philosophies is that humanity absolutely cannot survive at all without a massive amount of cooperation.
Assholes who think they can do it on their own are completely delusional.
If you eliminate everything from your life that required the cooperation of another human being, it’s likely you’re naked, starving, and freezing to death.
"Oh, I can hunt for food.’
Really? With just your bare hands? Maybe your naked ass will get lucky and nail a squirrel with a rock, but what are you going to do when a mountain lion decides you’re the squirrel?
Even if you manage to make some rock tools and weapons, you didn’t figure that out on your own. Someone told you about it.
Knowledge is the biggest advantage humans have going for them. Without sharing knowledge that others discovered, most people wouldn’t last long enough to matter.
Too damn right. Community is what makes humans strong. Eventually from those communities we form institutions which build nations, which may even build empires and coalitions.
A human alone is just potential food for something else.
The core political belief I hold is that so long as you are not directly harming someone else, you should be free to do that. That said, I have a lot built up on that.
I do not extend it to corporations or government. I believe that regulation is undoubtedly necessary for a functioning society.
And with laws, nuance is in everything. Nothing is ever so black and white to have a zero tolerance policy.
The perverse ideas that money is speech and corporations are people can make a lot of simple common-sense statements suddenly completely insane.
I support free speech. Money is not speech.
I support personal freedom. Corporations are not people.
Why limit it to direct harm? There’s tons of easily avoidable ways to indirectly cause harm. The most obvious to me are about our natural world: taking anything in an unsustainable way deprives others of opportunity, up to and including their ability to feed themself. Reckless hunting or fishing, poisoning water with agriculture runoff, introducing invasive species for personal gain or through negligence, even just cutting down all the trees around you can have loads of consequences with the impact to animal habitat and increased soil erosion.
Indirect becomes nebulous. At what degree of indirect harm do we set that limit. Almost every action we do may cause indirect harm to others. It might be better phrases as “physically” harms someone. I don’t want to get into someone doing something to themselves like taking drugs and restrict it solely on the basis that it will hurt their family and friends to see what happens to them.
I use it as the core base of my beliefs, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think that freedom divests them of any responsibility for their indirect actions. It’s the default position until something convinces me why it should be restricted or outlawed.
I also limit it to individuals working alone. Once they work in groups and organize the damage that can be done is different. Or doing it for commercial reasons. I believe private businesses can only exist under strict regulation.
My indirect harm litmus test would fall along the lines of like an OSHA style philosophy of regulation, for example for any kind of ledges we generally require rigid hand railings. If someone got hurt falling off a ledge at my workplace sure I didn’t do anything to cause it, but I’d still be on the hook for their injury because I didn’t take the required steps to reasonably prevent unnecessary injury.
The basic principle of libertarianism is appealing: mind your own damn business and I’ll mind mine. And I still agree with that in general — it’s just that a single generality does not make a complete worldview
The problem is obviously that nobody lives in isolation. Everyone takes actions which impact other people.
If there are going to be laws, then the government needs a police force and a judiciary that are big enough to enforce those laws. If there are going to be companies, the government has to be bigger than the biggest company, otherwise it won’t be able to effectively enforce anything. The bigger the biggest company gets, the bigger the government has to be in order to be able to enforce the laws. But, big government is antithetical to the libertarian philosophy. If you want to limit the size of the government but still want government to be able to enforce laws, you need to limit the size of companies. But that’s a regulation, and government regulations are antithetical to the ideas of libertarianism.
Arguing for the idea that the government should generally let people mind their own business as long as nobody is getting hurt, or that consenting adults are knowingly and willingly consenting to being hurt, that’s fine. Same with the idea that regulations shouldn’t be overly burdensome. There’s always going to have to be a line drawn somewhere, but it’s fine if you tend to want that line to be drawn in a way that allows for more freedom vs. more babysitting by the government.
The ridiculous bit is when libertarians try to argue that some extreme form of libertarianism is possible. Anarchy is certainly possible, but it isn’t something that most people, even libertarians, think is a great plan.
The extreme forms of Libertarianism or Anarchy are only possible if everyone engages in good faith. They have no built-in protections against bad actors. Someone wants to divert a river for any reason? Sucks to be downstream.
The libertarian party used to be considerably different as well. It certainly became something different entirely around 2012-2016.
All the Koch sucking the party did.
Yeah, I don’t have any problem with libertarianism in theory. Pro-civil liberties, anti-racism, anti-war, pro-choice, pro-guns, free markets, etc. I disagree with the value of some of it, but I can see why someone might thoughtfully and sincerely come to that sort of rationale. I’ve never really had a problem with Penn’s (and Teller’s) views because of that.
But the reality is that the majority of modern libertarians are just narcissist capitalists that do not like rules or laws that restrict them from doing anything they want. That or, way worse, they’re Ayn Rand ideologues who genuinely believe that self-service is a moral imperative, charity is immoral, poverty is personal failure, human life is measured in productivity, and the sick, poor, or malformed should be left to whatever fate the market gives them. Those types are some of the worst people on the planet. They see a wealthy capitalist as inherently a leader and role model and think he should be unconstrained from accumulating more wealth without concern for society, employees, or individual rights. We’re living in the light version of their ideal, and it gets closer to that ideal every day.
Agreed. If right-libertarianism could work at all, they’d need to be on the frontlines of boycotting companies that do bad things.
They claim that the government doesn’t need to force desegregated lunch counters; people would stop eating there until that place either changed or went out of business. Alright. Are they going to be the first ones to stand up and boycott companies that do anything like that? Because from what I saw, they were the first ones to say “they technically have a right to do that” and then do nothing. Almost like letting them get away with it was the actual point.
Gilette seems to have caught on to this trick at some point.
I feel the same with Unions and the broader Right. Like the whole point of Unions is they’re the “free market” equivalent of government regulation. If you’re pro free market but anti-union, then you’re not actually pro free market, you’re just pro exploitation.
Absolutely. It’s no coincidence that anti-union sentiment is common among right-libertarians.
The smartest people in the room are those who are willing to admit a mistake, or that their opinions have changed.
The wisest people in the room will be able to do that, but I don’t think you have to have had different/the wrong opinion to have that status. The wisest people listen, consider, and use all available information to make the best possible decisions.
Wise is definitely the better word to use here.
Reminds me of an anecdote about Robert Kennedy Sr. He was approached by a reporter on the campaign trail that asked him his stance on capital punishment.
“I’m against it,” Kennedy told the reporter.
“When you were at the Justice Department, that wasn’t your position.”
Kennedy replied, “That was before I read Camus.”
That explains why selling “sticking to your principles” and “tradition” go so easily for politicians.
Most people are thick as a pail of pigshit.
As a big fan of P&T, this is a major win.
Not to mention the veganism which is also closely related to rejecting fascism.
https://vegnews.com/magician-penn-jillette-goes-vegan-for-the-animals
(Full disclosure: I saw an interview where Penn says he went vegan for health and weight loss. But maybe he’s evolved to animal liberation as well.)
it’s gives me hope to see this. i made a career change recently from one that’s so utterly dominated by libertarians like this meme that it’s costed me jobs and inflicted trauma upon my psyche.
i’ve also been trying to drop the carnist behavior that i learned as a child; and also for health & weight loss goals; and learning that someone with a high profile that’s familiar to me, has done it successfully is helpful; thanks for sharing this.
Hey, you got this. Meatlessness is a difficult switch but once you get recipes and habits built up it gets easier. At this point meat doesn’t smell like food to me and while there are things I miss, it’s not like I worried it would be when I started
Didn’t know he was vegan. Weren’t they both guests at the chefs table on Hell’s Kitchen recently? Do they make anything vegan on that show?
IMO petrochemical textiles are a way bigger moral and existential problem than wool or even leather, so while there are many genuine concerns with the livestock industry I cannot support “full” veganism. We might get there eventually with biodegradable plastics but we aren’t there now.
“A lot of the illusions that I held dear, rugged individualism, individual freedoms, are coming back to bite us in the ass. It seems like getting rid of the gatekeepers gave us Trump as president, and in the same breath, in the same wind, gave us not wearing masks, and maybe gave us a huge unpleasant amount of overt racism.”
Hats off to a man willing to admit he made a mistake.
removed by mod
We should remember that at the time there was a severe lack of masks of any kind available. So creating a masking culture and blocking as much as possible was seen as better than just rawdogging the atmosphere.
the shortage was for a few months at best, I was working as a trucker hauling grain then, wheat dust is fucking nasty, I often wore a mask for that, an N95, which I went out of my way to get in bulk. Cloth masks can’t keep grain dust out of your lungs, don’t tell me they do anything as to a virus.
removed by mod
Grain dust PPM to a person working in a grain dust rich environment ≠ covid particles in every day air, So…. I don’t know why you feel the need to make such a bad faith a comparison of the two.
Additionally, masks of ANY type are helpful as they can assist in the virus containment of the WEARER should they be the one exposed.
Lastly, seriously… How do you not understand that there are two sides to a mask and that air travels in more than one direction through them?
removed by mod
And those were also the few months that NYC was using refrigerated semi trailers as extra morgue space because so many people were dying. And yeah they do. Some virus particles will be too small to be stopped but some will be riding larger particles and be stopped with them. Reducing the sheer amount of virus in an area is always better. Whether it’s by 10 percent or 90 percent.
sorry I had to block the community because the mod is a dumbass fuck who can’t handle very simple and demonstrable facts.
It’s more the Japanese way, wear a mask to protect others.
Cool to see the meme applied to someone who genuinely went to clown college!
I’ll thank you not to refer to Princeton that way.
Eh, Princeton WISHES it were as effective and useful as Clown College
Sorry, I thought he went to Princeton-Plainsboro.
deleted by creator
I mean, libertarianism in essence, arrived at purely through your own reasoning, is pretty based. Every person should be free to do as they please right up until it infringes on their neighbors’ own similar freedom; the government should be limited in scope to services which uphold that goal.
In practice, its proponents are either selfish pricks who think libertarianism means they specifically get to do whatever they want, or they wind up reinventing the government with Citizen Advocacy Boards and such.
The principle is valid, the company is pretty cringe tho.
It’s that line of “infringing on the freedom of others”. If you think it’s the government role to free people of their oppressive burdens (e.g. free them from poverty, free them from ill-heath) then concentration of wealth is “infringing on the freedoms of others”. So it needs to be regulated against.
deleted by creator
No. Not what I said.
deleted by creator
I think you just didn’t realize that’s synonymous with what you said. Private property is wealth, private property is theft… But even if you didn’t realize that’s what you implied, you were still correct :)
deleted by creator
Somewhat ironically, we can see virtual libertarianism/Anarcho capitalism evolve by following EVE online: Some of the larger player corporations became de facto states
I always thought I was one of the few people that saw Eve as the libertarian dystopia that it is. I certainly thought I was the only one that held it up as a ready example of what libertarianism looks like when fully executed – now that I think about it, this must be a more popular idea than I realized. Complete with nullsec monopolies and everything. All this in a space that features no scarcity other than real-estate. The end game of libertarian ideals in the Eve example ends in monopoly and the accumulation of absurd amounts of power into the hands of few select individuals. What’s striking is how well run things are on the fleet level, only for the corporate leaders to often be wasteful, populist, of questionable moral fiber, and generally irresponsible – albeit not as a rule. They also have a penchant for casually destroying those that disagree with them. It stands as an excellent example.
deleted by creator
I think it’s cool if you take it far enough for it to become anarchism, but if there’s still property it just becomes an excuse for exploitation.
deleted by creator
The funny (sad?) part is that libertarianism was originally coined to be a synonym for anarcho-communism, when discussion by name of the latter was outlawed in France. In fact, the definition has been completely overwritten only in the USA, where the word was colonized by Murray Rothbard in the 1950s. In Europe a lot of people still recognize the word “libertarian” outside of North American contexts as reference to leftist anarchist tendencies.
But colonizing an existing social good and contorting it to become something antisocial is extremely on-brand for capitalism.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Right, that’s exactly the problem I have with most people who call themselves libertarian. In a nutshell, they truly believe that we all should get to do whatever we want, as long as it doesn’t affect others. Except, everything we do affects other people. Some of the ways are profound, and some are trivial. The libertarian-type people are so selfish, or solipsistic, they think that only their own judgement applies whether the effect infringes freedom it not.
We see that with vaccines: The government shouldn’t mandate what they put in their bodies. That’s infringes freedom. But they’re more than happy to spread virus into other people’s bodies, and if immuno-compromised people think that it’s hurting them, too bad. Or the libertarian types think that they should be allowed to drive the biggest brodozer available, because it doesn’t affect anybody else, and the freedom of other people who get hit and crushed under the wheels, the other drivers blinded by eye-level headlights, or the taxpayers who have to subsidize more free parking space and street maintenance, doesn’t matter.
It’s always the same pattern: Anything that stops me from doing what I want is an unreasonable infringement of freedom, and any effects I have on other people are just the reality of living in society and they should suck it up.
It’s good to remind people that the term “libertarianism” (“Libertaire”) was coined by French anarcho-communists in the 1850s when the French government outlawed speech advocating anarchism specifically by name, and that for a full century is was used by anarchists throughout the western world to refer specifically to non-hierarchical modes of socialism and communism, ideologies that are founded on concepts like mutual aid, social solidarity, worker’s control, anti-authoritarianism, etc. It wasn’t until the 1950s when the American Murray Rothbard colonized the term to advocate for the exact opposite in an attempt to obfuscate the inseparable relationship between capitalism and the state. His attempt worked.
Ideologically I’m a true believer in communalism, a sociopolticial practice that is not quite anarchist and therefore is best described as a “libertarian socialist” tendency. But thanks to that ancap rat bastard Rothbard that description does not aid in helping most people to understand me.
Libertarian socialism with democracy in the workplace woud be a better alterantive that libertarian capitalism … we’re just stuck in the end of history way of thinking that people cant grasp life without capitalism
The thing is, there really is no such thing as libertarian capitalism. Capitalism cannot exist without the state, they’re essentially two necessary sides of the same coin. American “libertarianism” can really be described as a (successful) attempt to obfuscate that fact in the minds of capitalist subjects (Especially the most socially and financially privileged of those subjects). To make it seem like nothing good has been the result of competent governance, that it’s all great men unburdened by regulation, unbridled by law. Really though, all the coercive might of capitalism deflates without the violent capacity of the state.
Yeah , agree 100% … great man theory of history rly pisses me off , plus the whole “capitalism is best without regulations” bullshit , people forgot the first gilded age and the fight of the unions to give people some semblance of decency in the workplace
deleted by creator
I feel smart because I met Penn in his dressing room in Vegas few years back and discussed Gary Johnson’s running for President. But I came to my senses years ago…
LMAO I’m a libertarian who fully realizes that my party is bullshit.
I mean, Democrats and Republicans are both total bullshit too, but at least I’m self-aware enough to know my party is bullshit.
deleted by creator
Why have a party if you know that libertarianism is bullshit?
Because at least when Libertarians fuck everything up, sometimes it’s kinda funny. Ever hear about the time a bunch of Libertarian idiots got an entire town overrun by bears?
If they all suck why not just focus on mutual aid and solidarity with working class folks, instead of siding with billionaires. Because that’s ultimately what libertarianism is you know?
Libertarians aren’t a monolith, y’know. I’m not the “simp for billionaires” type of Libertarian, I hate those people. Rather, I’m the “prepper nutjob who hates the government and is ready to retreat to the woods when everything goes to hell” type of Libertarian.
deleted by creator
Well I think the real question is what are your ethics if you encounter another human being when you have retreated into the woods? … Do you avoid them?
Yes. “Get off my lawn” would be the appropriate response.
Do you try to dominate or exploit them? If so that is libertarianism.
No, that is not Libertarianism. Libertarians want very small government, focusing on protection of one’s rights and one’s property.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism
/ˌlibərˈterēəˌniz(ə)m/
noun: libertarianism
- a political philosophy that advocates only minimal state intervention in the free market and the private lives of citizens.
Do you work toward partnership and mutual aid? If so that’s anarchism.
No, that is not anarchism. Anarchists want no government whatsoever.
an·ar·chism
/ˈanərˌkizəm/
noun
noun: anarchism
- a political theory advocating the abolition of hierarchical government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion.
No offense, but honestly? I find anarchism to be even more ridiculous than libertarianism, and us libertarians are absolutely ridiculous. Sure, “voluntarism” sounds good on paper but what ends up happening looks more like Somalia in practice.
deleted by creator
removed by mod
deleted by creator
“I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid; I meant, that stupid persons are generally Conservative” - John Stuart Mill
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
John Kenneth Galbraith
I think Penn went there with a different mindset than those occupying the space now.
Galbraith wrote one of my favorite books!
deleted by creator
South Park guys too.
Politics so bad, you made the comedians who were mocking both sides in the 2000s apologize.
South Park guys too.
Source?
Being wrong admitting it and changing your mind with new information is absolutely amazing and a great character trait. Props to him.
Except that he lives a life of high privilege and has spent YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS saying the rest if us were wrong and immoral. It took straight up Nazism for him to back down. If Kamala were President now he would have doubled down on his philosophy
I got to meet him in Vegas. He was really nice to a nervous nerd. Now I’m even more impressed he has the courage to change his beliefs in public.
A sign of true intelligence is the ability to change your opinions after consideration and evidence. Penn always struck me as a very intelligent man.
I used to practically idolize Penn and Teller and had all their books and STILL use their card-forces and other goofy, effective performances with friends. It made me a legend with friends and family.
I lost track in adulthood but am glad to see that Penn didn’t turn into a grifting chud like so many from the time, and practiced what he preached in using critical thought and self-examination.
Yeah, they’re really nice guys. I got to go up on stage for one of their shows and participate in a trick. We went to a lot of shows on that trip (seven, i think?), they were the only ones that stand outside the exit and greet ever person leaving that wants to meet them. They sign autographs, take pictures, etc. with hundreds of people after each show. And they stopped to talk to my friend and I for a couple minutes as we left and Penn thanked me for participating and let me keep a prop from the act as a souvenir. Great dudes.
The souvenir is a good example of the libertarian aspects of their show. It was a metal card with the bill of rights on it, with the 4th amendment (the freedom from unwarranted search and seisure) highlighted in red. The premise was you should put it in your pocket when walking through the metal detectors or scanners at TSA at the airport. When the machines go off and they question you about out it, you were meant to pull it out and snarkily go “oh sorry, that’s just my bill of rights”. It was a good for a bit of a laugh in theory, but way too obnoxious to actually do in real life. I packed it away in my carry-on instead. I still have it in a keepsake box somewhere.
anyone who claims to be “a libertarian” should be forced to watch the libertarian convention which YOU KNOW none of them have ever seen in their lives.
check out the ideas your “party” pushes. real big brain stuff.
there’s nothing wrong with freedom, but regulation is necessary. to say otherwise is either ignorance, stupidity, or malice.
I’m a libertarian because the only thing I hate worse than Democrats are MAGA Republicans - And at least unlike Democrats and Republicans, I’m well aware that my party is a joke.
And before you criticize me, I voted Democrat against that orange wannabe dictator THREE FUCKING TIMES, grinding my teeth and swearing as I did so every time, but I still fucking did so, so spare me the lectures.
People like you should work on splitting the republican party.
And after that establish a more fair voting system that isn’t primed to stall at a two party state from the beginning.
People like you should work on splitting the republican party.
Oh trust me, I’ve been trying to convince any Trump voter who’s willing to listen that Trump is a con-man and a wannabe dictator for the last eight years.
It definitely helps that I speak their language - I’m a construction worker and a vet with a mouth that would probably offend many who consider themselves “woke” - but the most common problem I run in to is that even if I can get them to “see the light” and consider that Trump might be a con-man and a wannabe dictator, inevitably they go back to their own right-wing MAGA echo chambers and much of what I say goes out the damn window.
Damn, but thank you very much for trying! 🫶🏻🙏🏻
I wouldn’t have. I’ve never voted party lines.
stunning and brave
also the vast majority of dems did the same thing, we just don’t feel the need to tell everyone how different we are because of it
also the vast majority of dems did the same thing, we just don’t feel the need to tell everyone how different we are because of it
^ Translation: “I am too clueless to figure out that this thread is a conversation about Libertarians, and thus discussing Libertarians and Libertarianism is totally appropriate and on-topic.”
By the way, Pumpkin… Who died and made you in charge of what I talk about on the internet with others? Just curious.
yeah im clowning on the entire concept of “being libertarian” rather than libertarian ideas
you can talk about whatever you want, and I can clown on you for doing it. that’s freedom, baby.
or should i say pumpkin
Ah, my mistake. I had assumed you were just too socially clueless to understand how conversations work.
Enjoy being a clown!
lol ok dude
👍
Not going to try to preach or anything, but just wondering if you’ve ever read this article? Excellent read that sheds some light on real libertarian experiments and how they’ve gone wrong:
A Libertarian Walks into a Bear: How a New Hampshire libertarian utopia was foiled by bears
LMAO I own the book. I am well aware my party is a clown show, I just want to be able to grow weed, shoot guns, light fireworks, and enjoy the company of sex workers consensually within my poly marriage to my trans wife.
…Okay, I made that last part up, but you never know - I might one day feel the need to marry a trans girl and bang call girls together with her in a poly relationship, dammit, because life is short.
and enjoy the company of sex workers consensually within my poly marriage to my trans wife.
Are you against the government codifying protections for these people due to the undeniable danger that they face?
Nope, but that being said I don’t believe in the government being competent enough to do so in the first place, especially when there’s always going to be Republicans eager to revoke those protections.
That being said, I definitely encourage trans folks to arm themselves because let’s face it, the government will not protect them in any way under the Trump administration. The second amendment applies to all Americans and sadly there’s a lot of bigots around nowadays who are more than happy to commit a hate crime.
Nope, but that being said I don’t believe in the government being competent enough to do so in the first place,
Then I don’t think you’re a libertarian. If you were, you would not believe that this is even a possibility. My understanding is that it’s a core belief that the government, by definition, cannot be competent enough to do things like that.
Then I don’t think you’re a libertarian.
LMAO don’t mansplain Libertarianism to me.
to say otherwise is either ignorance, stupidity, or malice
Why not all three?
¿Por qué no los tres?
I found Libertarianism sorta interesting in the 90’s, but after school shootings became the norm, and they decided they still support absolute gun rights, I had to nope out. It’s only gotten nuttier since.
Ron Paul got me interested with the proposal to legalize weed; noped out when I learned Libertarians also believe that businesses should not be regulated at all.
I don’t know how you can claim to have progressive social ideas while letting corporations cause harm by not setting rules they must follow.
I was a very serious libertarian in my youth. I grew up deep in red country. I had no positive intellectual influences in my life whatsoever. It was Christians versus everyone else. I was the only atheist I knew.
The best friend I have ever had in my life was college educated, deeply intelligent, deeply flawed, but a very beautiful, loving, and brilliant person. He was the only atheist I had ever met. I was 18 years old, he was 15 years my senior.
He introduced me to all of the objectivist/libertarian thinkers and their works. I had never had anyone in my life who had any kind of serious intellectual interests. He gave me a place to start when I wouldn’t have otherwise had one.
I went all in.
It’s funny, because he told me when I was 20 years old. “I promise you, 20 years from now you and I are going to have a conversation and you will have become a bleeding heart liberal, 100%. I promise you. I can tell by the way you think about almost everything.”
He was right. It’s funny because he is as liberal as I am today. His son and my daughter are very close, very political, and very gay. They’ve moved the needle for him big time, I think.
For me, the moment that put me on this road was a very simple one. I was driving to work one day and I stopped at a red light. I seen this man struggling to walk, his right foot was turned around backwards. It just hit me like a ton of bricks, we are not on an even playing field at all. This man cannot help that his foot is on backwards. I can’t help if I’m dumber or smarter than the next guy. I can’t help what opportunities I have or have not had. I can’t help my bad luck or my good luck. It isn’t my fault that my dad is a junkie and doors are closed to me that are open to people with connections that I don’t have.
Why do two brothers from the same family with the same moral upbringing take such radically different paths? One becomes a junkie and the other becomes a preacher. Is there something beyond our control that guides us? If there is, should we not look out for one another? Should those of us at an advantage help those of us at a disadvantage? Surely we can’t leave them to die.
It was Bernie Sanders who finally flipped me completely.
Someone who was passionately empathetic, who was guided by the thought that we as a species can be better. It was before he ran for president, just some videos I seen of him on YouTube.
Most libertarians I have known are good people. They believe deeply in individualism, to the point that as long as any individual is living a life that brings harm to no one else, that person should be free to live how they choose.
The problem is, they idolize success, and fail to see how a successful person takes advantage of everyone else to get there.
When I meet a libertarian now, I trust that person. Maybe it’s because I shared that view so deeply at one point, but they all really do mean well. The ones that I have known have been very idealistic and believed that people would choose to do good for goodness sake.
Obviously, some very shitty people can grab onto any ideology, but anecdotally, the ones that I have met are just misguided and most of the socially liberal libertarians I knew when I was younger are now very progressive people.
That’s a beautiful story, thanks for sharing it.
I didn’t go in for libertarianism, but I was a pretty obnoxious with my born again atheism/rationalism/intellectualism. You were adjacent to that scene, so you can probably picture it lol. Not pretty.
Anyway, glad to hear from others who also managed to grow up to be kinder than they started.
Libertarians also believe that businesses should not be regulated at all.
Yup. It’s insanity.
Libertarianisn has always been nutty.
You’ve just grown as a person and are more easily able to identify it now, than you were back then.
Yeah, the reaction to Sandy Hook was what broke my illusions about libertarianism. And like the loose thread on a sweater it began unraveling the entire political philosophy. I saw how self centered and egotistical the entire belief system behind it really was.
Once I got past the “college student w/ first mustache” phase it lost its appeal.
I got turned towards Libertanianism when I lived in Germany for a while and if you ever had you’d know why. Then I lived in Asia where it’s the exact opposite and that turned me towards socialism. My point being is that there’s definitely a golden mean to freedoms and any absolutist should be immediately ignored because they are objectively wrong.
I got turned towards Libertanianism when I lived in Germany for a while and if you ever had you’d know why.
Living in Germany rn. I don’t get it? Can you please explain?
Not OP and couldn’t see myself moving towards Libertarianism, but I can kinda see where OP is coming from. Germany does have a huge amount of regulations for almost everything. A lot of projects take far too long because there are so so many rules and laws to be considered. People working in administration got so used to that, that they tend to avoid responsibilities and hide behind rules and regulations (saying this as someone working in administration, trying to establish better digital processes, which tends to be quite frustrating). On an individual level, everything (except the Autobahn without its speed limit) is always made, so even the biggest idiot can’t hurt himself. Sometimes that ruins the fun for everyone else…
It’s just Kafka-esque bureaucracy of everything. It’s almost impossible to get anything done and it’s incredibly demotivating.
Its 90% of european continent , ita burried under 10 layers of buirocracy … we even have a joke here “you’re gonna need a form ym1p (you’re missing 1 paper) on your third visit, otherwise you wont get anything done” , doesnt translate as well tho
Yes I’m generally pro regulation and government oversight but the way European countries implement this sometimes feels like a purposeful moat to protect the rich.
Gee, I can’t imagine why Germany would want to slow down government actions…
Maybe I’m oversimplifying but I tend to think money is the problem. Supposing all wealth were equally distributed, libertarianism makes a lot of sense to me as maximizing personal freedoms. It generally becomes a problem when people use wealth to abuse others, either by hoarding wealth and restricting the freedom of others that way, or by using inequality to purchase things that no person should be able to purchase.
Another thing to keep in mind is that libertarianism wants everyone to focus on the individual, when society itself is an organized group that looks toward the collective (ideally, anyway)
Without guardrails or penalties for being caught, people that abuse the system will hoard wealth and power until they can call the shots
Or get shot , libertairanism slides into feudal/oligarchical structure if left unchecked
These thought experiments are fun and truthful and all but I really dont see much value in this speculation tbh. In my 40something years in different cultures I’ve became a staunch believer in Golden Mean of politics. Use the right tool for the right job. Times are good - work on more fteedoms, times are harder - maybe it’s time to tighten up the belts.
But what if the hard times are caused by rich people abusing the commons? Should we just keep tightening our belts while the rich take more and more?
I agree in general, like if there’s a drought expect less food. But most of our scarcity is artificial. I believe there are solutions to the challenge of surviving.
No the golden mean also applies to your example too. If rich get too toxic it’s time to bring out guillotines
Oh interesting, that’s not what it sounded like. Is that your personal view, or a tenet of the Golden Mean? Is there a particular thinker that you cleave to more than the others?
The Wikipedia page is pretty nebulous on this, other than allowing for a limited aristocracy (and monarchy?? Lol no thanks on that).
I’m not sure how you’d decide exactly how limited this aristocracy is without importing from other philosophies and value systems.
Golden Mean is a philosophy of Aristotel who said that all things have a golden mean (or balance) where existence is optimal.
Basically avoiding any sort of extremism will always be the most efficient path because of uncertainty and imperfection of our existence.
He mostly applied it to virtues of living like justice or wisdom. Sure you can close yourself off and study non-stop or fight all of the injustice in the world without sleep but this is not sustainble and diminishing returns reaches a point where the energy input is no longer returning positive results or even decreasing the overall output.
Imo this applies to basically everything including politics. Because political systems are so complex (and people are so complex) it’s imposible to control the systwm without leaving space for imperfection. So you can be a socialist but you still need to respect some individual freedoms, you can be a libertarian but you still have to admit that some things need to be forbidden for smooth sailing basically.
I can certainly second this as an American who emigrated to Germany. I considered myself a strong “Bernie-leftist” in the States yet gravitate more towards the political center here.
I am a PJ fan and follower, but I am well aware that he has long been a naive idiot operating from a place of priviledge. He is well insulated from the pitfalls of the ideas he espouses, and it took an UNDENIABLE COLLAPSE into straight up Nazism for him to finally grasp it.
Luv ya Penn, but I ain’t giving you any fucking medals
Yeah, but the bar is through the floor at this point. I’ll take anything I can get.
And the more people come out and say “oh shit I was wrong” the easier it becomes for others to do the same.
