Date of 4 June remains one of China’s strictest taboos, with government using increasingly sophisticated tools to censor its discussion
There is no official death toll but activists believe hundreds, possibly thousands, were killed by China’s People’s Liberation Army in the streets around Tiananmen Square, Beijing’s central plaza, on 4 June 1989.
The date of 4 June remains one of China’s strictest taboos, and the Chinese government employs extensive and increasingly sophisticated resources to censor any discussion or acknowledgment of it inside China. Internet censors scrub even the most obscure references to the date from online spaces, and activists in China are often put under increased surveillance or sent on enforced “holidays” away from Beijing.
New research from human rights workers has found that the sensitive date also sees heightened transnational repression of Chinese government critics overseas by the government and its proxies.
As an American I think it’s helpful to put this into some sort of perspective.
Things the US won’t forget:
- Tiananmen Square (thousands dead)
Things the US will forget:
-
Korean War (3mil civilian dead)
-
Vietnam War (2mil civilian dead)
-
Iraqi War (1mil civilian dead)
-
Violent overthrow of East Timor (widely considered a genocide)
-
Violent overthrow of Afghanistan (twice, over 1 mil dead)
-
Violent overthrow of Nicaragua
-
Violent overthrow of Grenada
-
Violent overthrow of Panama
-
Violent overthrow of Libya
-
Coup d’etat of Guatemala
-
Coup d’etat of Iran
-
Failed Coup d’etat of Syria
-
Failed Coup d’etat of Indonesia
-
Many failed Coup d’etat attempts on Cuba
-
Coup d’etat of Congo
-
Coup d’etat of Laos
-
Coup d’etat of the Dominican Republic
-
Coup d’etat of Iraq
-
Coup d’etat of Brazil
-
Successful Coup d’etat of Indonesia (1 mil dead)
-
Coup d’etat of Chile
-
Multiple Coup d’etat of Bolivia
-
Coup d’etat of Haiti
-
Multiple Coup d’etat attempts on Venezuela
-
Coup d’etat of Palestine
-
Mass civilian casualties, destabilization of many governments, people subject to a lifetime of torture without a trial, all under the War on Terror
This list could be so much longer, but I gotta get to work.
Things the US will forget:
Korean War (3mil civilian dead)
Vietnam War (2mil civilian dead)
Iraqi War (1mil civilian dead)
Imagine thinking that the US has forgotten any of these when they’re a constantly pressure on the cultural zeitgeist even literal decades later. Or, for that matter, that the Korean War is in any way comparable.
Violent overthrow of Afghanistan (twice, over 1 mil dead)
Twice? Christ, tell me you aren’t talking about the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Not to mention that the ‘overthrow’ of ‘Afghanistan’ the second time would rely on recognizing the Taliban, and not the democratically-oriented Northern Alliance which was fighting them at the time, as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.
Yeah, just recently I rewatched Apocalypse Now. And I’ve never been to the U.S. or Vietnam. I agree, this is pretty much alive in cultural memory, not forgotten.
What’s ironic is that his list conveniently forgets China’s invasion of Vietnam 1979.
Not trying to be confrontational or pedantic (there’s enough bickering in here) but it’s important to state that the Korean War is quite literally called “The Forgotten War”. In fact, it’s more important to point out that it wasn’t even a War, but considered a “police action” that claimed the lives of up to 3 million civilians (link).
Truman acted without seeking congressional authorization either in advance or in retrospect. He instead justified his decision on his authority as commander in chief. The move dramatically expanded presidential power at the expense of Congress, which eagerly cooperated in the sacrifice of its constitutional prerogatives.
Robert A. Taft of Ohio, one of the leading Republicans on Capitol Hill at the time, took to the Senate floor on June 28 to argue that “there is no legal authority for what he [Truman] has done.” Nor could Truman argue that the Korean conflict didn’t constitute war in a constitutional sense, even if he did downplay the significance of his decision. (At a press conference on June 29, Truman denied the country was at war, prompting a journalist to ask, “would it be correct…to call this a police action?” Truman answered simply, “Yes.”
Truman in the end acted because he believed, contrary to what the framers envisioned and the historical record showed, that as commander-in-chief he had the authority to order U.S. troops into combat… Truman was able to establish the precedent that presidents can take the country to war, though, because members of Congress were unwilling, Taft’s complaints notwithstanding, to defend their constitutional power from executive encroachment.
You can’t look at those statements and not make parallels to what’s going on in America today with the executive branch trying to sequester even more power. Ironically just recently saw a pretty decent video on the war by Mr. Beat
The War Americans Forgot About
edit: forgot an S
The “pressure on the cultural zeitgeist” you speak of is just “shoot, then cry”. The victims are forgotten.
and not the democratically-oriented Northern Alliance which was fighting them at the time, as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.
You’re joking right
Please tell me this is sarcasm bruh
You’re joking right
Sorry, do you not remember who the de-facto leader of the Northern Alliance was?
Is it better to be drowned out than forgotten?
This makes perfect sense, it’s one thing for Taiwanese and Chinese people to remember it but its absolute hypocrisy for the west to comment. Especially as they fund the genocide in Gaza and Western Liberals make excuses for it.
No, it doesn’t. Only people who are full shit use and defend this fallacy. People who have principles call out shitty behaviors and actions whenever they see them, that’s because principles are universal. If you selectively choose when to apply them, then you don’t believe in them.
If you acturally call out genocide and shitty practices wherever you see it than its being principled. If you only call it out when a “bad” country does its hypocrisy, and tbh I have seen people do the later far more often while claiming the former.
Tell me, when Western Europe plunders the global south to subsidize their social programs do you complain? Or when the Zionist Occupation slowly takes more land away from the natives? What about the western funded dictators committing genocide across the third world and selling their nations for scraps?
Do you acturally call for freedom, an end to the exploitation, or do you demand a compromise? Do you demand native Palestinians give up half their land to the occupation? Africans half their resources to Europeans? And dictators to kill half as many minorities?
When somebody supports said “bad” countries, they’ll view any instance of these countries being called out for any shitty actions as hypocrisy. What this actually shows is that these people are in fact hypocrites themselves. If they were principled, then they would’ve acknowledged the shitty actions of whatever country is pointed out and moved on. Instead, they go on they go on the brainless rants that are filled with fallacies to distract from the original issue and dismiss criticism, misinformation, and endless crying about how the country being called out is a victim for the atrocity they committed. These rants don’t change the reality of the issue being raised originally.
This entire post is about western governments who are currently engaging in genocide calling out an event in China that if you look at the proper context is bad but not an atrocity
the Tiananmen Square Massacre,
“not an atrocity”
yep, tankies gonna tank.
No the post is about the Chinese massacre.
By all mean call out genocide but it’s not relevant in post.
Don’t try to dismiss criticism of one massacre and its continuous censorship by bringing up another massacre.
Least braindead Marxist
It’d be a bit like if China and it’s entire sphere once a year went crazy commemorating the Kent State or Haymarket Massacre. They wouldn’t be wrong to say these are bad things, but it’d clearly be in service of some ulterior motive.
Honestly, even with an ulterior motive, I see no reason they shouldn’t.
The thing is, only the US and West do this shit of constantly complaining about other countries and celebrating their historical tragedies every year. And it’s not a coincidence that they’re also the countries to invade and constantly engage in imperialism all around the world the most, and have the capacity to, with hundreds of military bases around the world.
It’s such obvious propaganda against foreign enemies, especially ones we want to fight. You think it would make it super obvious how propagandized Americans are, but they don’t see the hypocrisy at all because of that very propaganda.
What would be the point in China bringing up the Haymarket massacre or Kent state every year? And for that matter, what’s the point in the US bringing up the Tiannamen Square every year?
Glass houses indeed.
The US brings up its own horrible events all the time.
I learned about The Trail of Tears, the era of segregation, and of the KKK in my history class in America. We make conscious efforts to be aware of and criticize our own faults - as well as those of other nations.
There is currently LOTS of criticism of the US government for its participation in the massacre in Palestine. Claiming otherwise is lying. China is relatively unique in that it has committed atrocities, and refuses to allow anyone in its own country to acknowledge them. Both countries have done bad things. One country recognizes those facts and attempts to learn from them.
The US is not allowing criticism of Palestine. Not sure if you’ve seen the stuff happening in college campuses, job applications, the DNC where they didn’t allow a speaker, even local elections where foreign policy shouldn’t matter, etc. And it’s only going to get worse according to the 2025 plan, where it details additional attempts to shut it down. It’s also been downplaying other stuff in schools, such as the negative parts of slavery, Jim Crow, basically everything bad the US has ever done. The problem with our education system is that it depends a lot on which state, city, and even school you are from (private or public, charter or not, etc.).
The whole conflict about critical race theory and the Moms for Liberty stuff is all about them trying to roll these things back.
I agree their censorship is too high in China, though, but I think it’s a result of siege theory. Essentially they’ve seen the US do a million coup attempts and color revolutions in other countries, often successful, and so you if you’re a third world country you basically need a tight control of your press and elections if you want to resist US control. And I doubt seeing us fall to propaganda in the US from billionaire backed media organizations and foreign countries is going to encourage them to not censor though. Unfortunately, if anything, it will do the opposite.
I know your question is rhetorical, but hypothetically China could do that with the aim of whipping up their population into hating the American government more, making them more willing to swallow local authoritarianism and foreign imperialism framed as national defense. That’s basically what the US is doing in the current arrangement, only reversed.
Agreed, dont throw stones from glass houses
The implied issue with that phrase is you risk your own glass house being pelted, correct? The glass house, in this case, being atrocities each government is implicated in?
I’m fine with all the atrocities being called out. Otherwise, how do we learn not to do them anymore?
I want to belive that people here genuenly call out atrocities everywhere but they dont, if you personally call out evil in every place it resides then I respect you.
I can critize and dislike the US involvement in Korea, the ongoing genocide in Gaza, AND the Tiananmen Square massacre.
I can rank which ones killed more people, but no one should be committing any crimes against humanity like these regardless of scale
Some commentators have defended the usage of whataboutism and tu quoque in certain contexts. Whataboutism can provide necessary context into whether or not a particular line of critique is relevant or fair, and behavior that may be imperfect by international standards may be appropriate in a given geopolitical neighborhood. Accusing an interlocutor of whataboutism can also in itself be manipulative and serve the motive of discrediting, as critical talking points can be used selectively and purposefully even as the starting point of the conversation (cf. agenda setting, framing, framing effect, priming, cherry picking). The deviation from them can then be branded as whataboutism
Wow. Fascinating. Thanks for the link.
Yep that’s exactly my point, the US is doing Whataboutism when it issues these PR stunts to condemn Chinese atrocities.
Hey, hey, hey…
- Korean War (3mil civilian dead)
- Vietnam War (2mil civilian dead)
They at least got hit movies and TV shows! ;)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAS*H_(film)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAS*H_(TV_series)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platoon_(film)
If I had a nickle for everyone who either stopped watching Full Metal Jacket after Lee Emery gets shot or watched the husks of men, who just got massacred by a child defending her home, marching through the burning town while singing children’s songs, and thanked the next veteran they met for fighting for freedom.
And we know the extent of US involvement in these coups and conflicts because the US declassified the info, becauase all info becomes declassified eventually.
When is the Dictatorship of China going to admit that this happened, when will they declassify the internal documents about this atrocity they were responsible for?
That’s the problem people have with the Chinese government. They can’t even acknowledge reality because they seek to eventually change the records of what really happened to pretend they did no wrong.
I agree that declassification is a great thing, but it is not so black and white. Not all info becomes declassified eventually, so much is covered up and destroyed.
For example, much is known about the My Lai massacre in the Vietnam War. Most of this information is known due to declassified documents. But these declassified documents also mention that there were over 100 My Lai-level massacres that occured, most of which we know nothing about. Army Chief of Staff Westmoreland was quoted saying we do a “My Lai each month”.
One of the largest, codenamed Speedy Express, reportedly killed 11,000 people, and was covered up at the highest levels.
I don’t care about your whataboutism meant to deflect
When is the Chinese government going to admit that they were responsible for the Tiananmen Square Massacre?
If you can’t answer that then fuck off tankie
My best guess is that the Chinese government will admit fault long into the future, when most of the accountability and backlash has already faded into history.
Which is no different than how the US has handled many of the atrocities I mentioned.
When will the US acknowledge and release info on the 100s of Yemeni and Pakistani civilian targets that were destroyed by drone strike? When will the US release the warcrimes reports from the War on Terror? Does the US even still have these warcrimes reports, or were they destroyed (as whistleblowers and Amnesty International have suggested they were)?
If you can’t answer questions like these without resorting to cries of “Whataboutism”, then fuck off hypocrite.
And we know the extent of US involvement in these coups and conflicts because the US declassified the info, becauase all info becomes declassified eventually.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout
According to Victor Marchetti, a former special assistant to the Deputy Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), a limited hangout is “spy jargon for a favorite and frequently used gimmick of the clandestine professionals. When their veil of secrecy is shredded and they can no longer rely on a phony cover story to misinform the public, they resort to admitting—sometimes even volunteering—some of the truth while still managing to withhold the key and damaging facts in the case. The public, however, is usually so intrigued by the new information that it never thinks to pursue the matter further.”
US declassification falls squarely into this domain. What gets released into the public record is enshrined as “The Truth” and what gets omitted is reserved to the domain of “Conspiracy Theory”. Thus a guy like Allen Dulles can sit on the committee that investigates the assassination of the President and author the copy that the CIA was in no way at fault or otherwise involved in the actions of a disgruntled former agent’s actions against the Chief Executive who personally fired Dulles three years earlier.
That’s the problem people have with the Chinese government. They can’t even acknowledge reality
The Chinese Communist Party has its own version of Limited Hangout and goes to some length to assert that the riots in Tienanmen were the result of outside agitation, the civilian death toll was minimal, and the reforms that followed succeeded in restoring trust in the national government.
Westerners choose to ignore the official party line and rely on the equally unreliable narrations of participants who were fully opposed to the party, heavily invested in an insurgent opposition, and outspoken in their desire to abolish the CCP and have its leadership executed.
So you end up with a bunch of smug liberals denouncing Chinese state media as controlled, while regurgitating talking points that came straight out of the John Birch Society and the Falun Gong.
It’s propaganda all the way down. Nobody is giving you a complete and accurate picture of events. Any serious scholar must reconstruct events by bits and pieces, sifting through the enormous amounts of FUD. And when their work is completed… good luck finding it, because vanishingly few media moguls have an interest in promoting something that is insufficiently sensational.
Most of that looks right, but
Violent overthrow of East Timor (widely considered a genocide)
Ok, this was Indonesia, with murican quiet assent, but still, don’t give other countries a pass on these things to make them look clean.
Many of these also involved the local elites going to the US for help. e.g. The draft UN resolution for the no-fly zone in Lybia was produced by the Arab League and backed by the African Union, which pressured russia and China not to veto it.
It is not my intention to give other countries a pass. Indonesia is guilty of genocide in the case of East Timor; the US is guilty as well.
The genocide in East Timor is analogous to the ongoing genocide in Palestine.
Both genocides are not conducted by US personnel, but the majority of arms are supplied by the US. The US gives international legitimacy to the genocidal party, while running defense for it’s atrocities. The genocide in East Timor was ended by a phone call from the US president, and I am of the firm belief that the genocide in Gaza could be ended by a similar call. Previous Israeli atrocities were ended by calls from Reagan and Bush Sr.
Allowing the government to be taken over by fascists makes any “remembering” of horrific events pretty meaningless anyway. In the context of government, not individuals.
Add to the list the US support of the Israeli war crimes currently going on in Gaza. Just yesterday they vetoed a ceasefire and delivery of aid proposition in the UN.
People like you are evidence that Marxism is failed ideology that cannot be defended by it’s own merits. You know it’s a failure, which is why you resort to fallacies and misinformation.
Hey, the difference is, you can post this list here, and nothing will happen to you.
Become a Chinese citizen, and then post that single bullet item about the TS incident in China, on a Chinese social media. Then see what happens.
That may be true, but it doesn’t excuse the list at all.
My country is responsible for the majority of international violence since WWII. I find that morally unacceptable.
I make posts like this because I want my country to do better. But the sad reality is we have yet to learn our lesson. We have been aiding and abetting an ongoing Holocaust for almost two years now.
“Never forget” is great and all but from a German perspective it seems to not be enough. It is much more important to make sure the same or very similar things do not happen again, not by China and not by any other nation. Otherwise you end up like we did here in Germany where decades of “never forget” lead to very similar sentiments being expressed by a new major party but since things are slightly different (e.g. the “never forget” was always phrased to be about Jews, this is more about foreigners in general) people seem to allow themselves to ignore them.
“Never again”:
- ❌ “We must never do what we did to the Jews in WW2 again”.
- ✅ “We can never allow what we did to the Jews in WW2 to happen again to anyone”.
Germans should be critical of Israel then.
US currently working on ways to top it.
That’s exactly what I was thinking. I feel like we’re months away at most
Timing will be important. They’ll want the big violence to break out next summer, so he can declare Martial Law, and suspend the 2026 Midterm election.
America has never missed an election, even during the Civil War. Suspending an election is a big, bright red, flashing line. They do that, and it’s on for real.
It’s already on for real. Hypernormalization is a bitch. That might shock us all for an afternoon but we’d be back to the same discourse a week later.
The death toll of Tiannenmen riots is around 300. You would think it was 300.000 from the amound of posts we see about it.
Current casualty count in Gaza is about 200 times higher than Tiannenmen.
I just mean to say I don’t see any sort of barrier preventing the US government from sending the military in to massacre its own civilians
deleted by creator
Never forget says country engaged in rewriting its own history.
Which country do you think The Guardian is from?
Things only come from murikkka. The American exceptionalism is rife.
England, a country absolutely dripping with revisionism.
FFS, the royal family of their Protestant breakaway nation is German Catholic.
wtf does the religion of the tourist-attraction royal family have to do with anything in 2025? are you from the middle ages?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/14/secret-papers-royals-veto-bills
Brits have no clue how powerful their monarchy remains.
This list also highlights how selfish they are.
Marxist ideology is fragile house of cards, where each card is a lie. Without fallacies, misinformation, and outright lies, Marxism will collapse in on itself. It’s an ideology that cannot be defend on it’s own merits which is why its brainless supports will cling on to any fallacy to distract them for the reality.
Was genuinely thinking of walking in front of Trump’s military parade.
Meanwhile Oklahoma telling kids the 2020 election was rigged under state law.
Tankies and whataboutism, name a more iconic duo (pro tip: you can’t)
You say whataboutism, I say hypocrisy.
Whataboutism is literally the appeal to hypocrisy fallacy. It’s a fallacy because the appeal is done in place of a proper argument that addresses the original issue. The very purpose of this fallacy is to distract from the original issue and to dismiss criticism without ever addressing it by bringing up something irrelevant to the topic at hand and accusing others of hypocrisy.
The point isn’t to distract, it’s to provide context so the accuser can’t create an inaccurate framing. The atomic unit of propaganda isn’t lies, it’s emphesis.
If every week, a right-wing German posted about how many gays Britain murdered, imprisoned, or castrated during the 40s, it would be borderline deceitful for other lemmy users not to provide the full context of what Germany was doing to gays at that time (and what West Germany continued to do until the 1970s).
Same deal when we get the occasional zionist talking about the plight of gay Palestinians. Yes, they have their own struggle, but there is a very specific and obvious purpose behind a zionist bringing it up.
You’re being dishonest. You didn’t provide any context or made any remark regarding framing or context. In fact, you made no argument at all. You just brought up an entirely irrelevant subject for the sole purpose to distract from the original issues and dismiss the criticism being brought up by appealing to hypocrisy. It’s literally the textbook definition of the fallacy.
Same deal when we get the occasional zionist talking about the plight of gay Palestinians.
This is a good example, you’re exactly like them in this case.
The subject is “whataboutism”, or when people bring up similar, but far worse things done by liberal institutions in response to supporters of liberal institutions accusing communists of doing bad things to show that the supporter of the liberal institution doesn’t actually give a shit about the event they’re crying about and is simply using it as a pretext to justify hostility against that communist state, victims included.
That’s a wild assumption you just made up based on literally nothing. But the fact that you need to make up such assumptions is ironic, because it shows that yourself are a hypocrite. You support these atrocities and the regimes who committed them and so you perceive people calling out these acts as unjustified “hostility” rather warranted criticism. Since you’re admitting that you don’t actually care about the atrocities being committed, that means the only purpose you would bring up anything to do with “liberal institutions” is to be fallacious, which is exactly the case here.
The entire purpose of bringing up entirely irrelevant subjects is to distract from the original issue and dismiss criticism. There’s no context, there’s no argument, there’s no point. You’re simply mad that the regime you support is being criticized and as a desperate attempt to divert attention away from the criticism, you bring up irrelevant topics and accuse people of being hypocrites for their criticism of the original topic… even that doesn’t negate the validity of their criticism whatsoever.
When people call you out on your fallacious argumentation, they’re telling that the logic you’re using is inconsistent. If you’re actually ignorant enough to not understand what the fallacies are or why they’re bad then that’s a different issue, but if you’re aware what they are and why they’re bad and still choose to be annoyed then that means you’re disingenuous. It means you’re arguing in bad faith from the get go, which is an indication that the beliefs you are trying to defend are flawed to the point where you can’t defend them on their own merits.
I say, why not both?
whataboutism
How to spot a shill for state propaganda.
Ah yes, the state is paying me to call out idiots on Lemmy for using fallicious argumentation and inconsistent logic. Which state is paying me? Who knows, but that’s the fun of making up random baseless accusations when you have nothing of value to provide.
The capitalism capital of the world probably shouldn’t be preaching about human rights.
Boy, you sure did get 'em. No pointing out bad behavior unless your history is unblemished, I guess.
US history is a little more than unblemished, though. Hell, not even history. They are literally arming a genocidal state as we speak.
Don’t forget that they are literally being lead by a political movement named after the history denying idea that they were “great” at some point and want to get back to that (never mind the other lie that the leaders of the movement don’t actually want to get back to any particular point in history despite the name)
Tankie bot says what now? Get lost.
Every now and then I follow up and ask tankies what their actionable alternative is. They just never have one. Just making perfect the enemies of good. Tankies are deeply un-serious.
Best resource distribution (economic) model according to tankies: “Trust me bro”
I’d still rather have a more socialist society. Distribution based on markets means depriving those in need. Unfortunately tankies would rather leave vulnerable people to suffer the brutality of capitalism.
Shocking idea (this will blow your mind), but what if we dont fund a genocidal apartheid state? I mean not cut military aid by 30% or delay it three weeks, what if we just dont? What if we dont compromise with fascism?
If you abstain then you won’t have influence to stop funding genocide.
If you are serious please comment a real and actionable alternative.
The fact that voting inherently requires accepting fascism does not make fascism ok, it inherently makes liberal democracy fascist. As for a real and actionable alternative, building dual power through unions. Build communities from the bottom up to resist fascism and arm workers to prepare for eventual revolution.
The fact that voting inherently requires accepting fascism does not make fascism ok, it inherently makes liberal democracy fascist
I don’t see how that follows
Build communities from the bottom up to resist fascism and arm workers to prepare for eventual revolution.
I agree, but don’t you want to see some incremental progress for it in the mean time? We need political influence and tankies are just not good allies for it. Genocide is happening today. People are hungry and without medicine today. We can’t wait for a perfect revolution (those who wait are really just showing their privilege). Waiting for that also means leaving those you intended to help to die in the trenches. That in short is why I consider tankies un-serious.
I support the community building from the bottom up, but tankies are not doing that either. They are no shows on all fronts, and demoralizing our movements when we do try to do other things.
Agreed people are dying today, thats why we cant make these compromises. Compromising the lives of milliones of people based on what makes a bunch of privileged white liberals feel comfortable. Because right now only liberals are trying to equate the Palestinian Genocide with Palestinian resistance, thats what actural both sideism looks like.
Whataboutism.
Taiwan?
Lol you’re the type of imbecile who would cry about Palestine and American imperialism, but then turn around and say shit like this. Marxists are a joke.
You’re not making much sense.
I’m saying you have no moral consistency. Think about it, what purpose does your comment serve besides defending this massacre? You’re simply mad that are people are recognizing it as such, and you want to shut down the criticism by screaming hypocrisy, but that in of itself is hypocritical because if China came out and recognized the trail of tears for example, you would be ecstatic with joy. You wouldn’t be crying about how China shouldn’t preach about human rights due to their extensive record of human rights abuses.
China?
This is just my personal experience:
~I was talking to a few young Chinese. They were after born after the massacre happened.~
“Why are Hong Kong people are so full of themselves and rebellious? They think they are better? (Derogatory comments…”, cheating among themselves, happily.
I couldn’t help and interrupted, “Some young promising Hong Kong students were murdered, beaten and kidnapped under the mainland China. You can’t blame them for not being defensive.”
Immediately they resorted to their memorised response, “Do you have any resources to back up what you said? The official death count was zero.”
Of course there was no “official” news resources. China suppresses the news media.
"It is the same as Tiananmen massacre. You won’t find any “official resources " but everyone knows people were killed.”
Another one retorted, “The official number is zero. What official resources you have to backup your claim?”
It was useless to talk anymore at that moment. I left. My encounter probably would be on their “report.”
I find it pretty rare to meet Chinese people like that. Most of the ones I meet know that stuff happened isn’t that the government covered it up but they don’t think that the government covering things up is all that unusual or newsworthy.
Not contesting there was a violent crackdown, but didn’t the video for this moment end with the tank just stopping the entire time, the briefcase guy climbing onto the tank, then getting shuffled away by fellow civilians?
Everyday we see way worse shit happening on the streets of the US. Somehow the crackdown back then on anti-communist academics is an enshrined moment, but people on our streets getting arrested, detained, or killed is just business as usual.
And we also act like our country doesn’t call academics “indoctrinated”, beat the living crap out of both students and academics, and doesn’t want to kill them. Amazing.
The were about 8000 people killed iirc. I once saw on reddit a link to a photo archive of the day and especially night. There were some very explicit photos. Like intestines falling out of opened bellies and bodies with half a head left.
I think I know the pictures you mean and those were PLA soldiers lynched by the mob before the tanks started rolling in.
Pretty sure the range is unknown to this day, and 8k is incredibly excessive. The British ambassador that claimed 10k revised it to around 3k and even that was high compared to corroborating reports
You’re actually delusional if you think anything like the Tiananmen square massacre is happening in the US today.
Its far worse, seppoland has actual concentration camps at the border and
secretplainclothes police disappearing people into torture prisons in foreign countries. Also funding, arming and running political cover for a genocide. Why just today it vetoed a UN resolution calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. And thats just whats currently going on off the top of my head.If we look at US history however we can find stuff like throwing a bomb on their own civilians and just one genocide after another.
Boy tankies will literally anything out of their ass to justify their false narratives.
No, the reality is that you cannot come up with any examples like this massacre so you’re trying to cope with any random thing you slap on. Come back to me when you have an example of the federal government giving direct orders to massacre anything that moves during a massive civilian protest (pro tip: you can’t).
Trying to argue that the US today is worse than China today or even back then, is the definition of arguing in bad faith. Just about every index and measurement shows that China is way more authoritarian, and to the CCP human rights isn’t even a subject of debate, it’s more like a loose guideline that should be applied selectively.
If you really want to get into history, then literally nothing in history matches the insane death toll of communist China. Mao is literally history’s biggest killer by a big margin, and his reign has resulted in the worst man made disasters ever. From illegally occupying to Tibet to putting the Uyghurs in “reeducation camps” to stealing islands in the South China sea from the Philippines to massacring civilians peacefully protesting to literal demicides to the worst man made famine in history, and so much more. Your ignorance on the history of China is expected, but also still embarrassing
For the record, unlike you mouthbreathers, I actually acknowledge the bad things the US has done and does, because I actually have principled. I know you don’t have any, otherwise you wouldn’t be showcasing yourself as a hypocrite and a clown for everyone to see in attempt to distract from a basic criticism of the Chinese government.
Come back to me when you have an example of the federal government giving direct orders to massacre anything that moves during a massive civilian protest (pro tip: you can’t).
You can’t just make up shit. The soldiers weren’t given orders to “murder anyone that moves” or else the tank would’ve run that guy over. Where did you get that? They just looked at each other for awhile. I don’t think anyone even died in Tiannamen Square itself. Battles happened in other parts of the city as soldiers defended themselves, though. It wasn’t peaceful like you said earlier, soldiers died. Not that I think every protest necessarily has to be, or should be, peaceful, but at least get the facts straight.
And of course similar things happened in the US. We bombed an apartment building. There was the Kent shootings, the Haymarket massacre, Whiskey Rebellion, the incident in Waco, the assassination of Fred Hampton, hell, cop shootings happen every year. Not to mention hundreds of years of slavery where who knows how many were killed.
And no, Mao is not worse than Hitler. Mismanagement leading to famines is bad and the Cultural Revolution went too far in some places, and China acknowledges those mistakes btw, but they don’t compare to the targeted genocides, holocaust, and wars of Hitler. And most of those things you said weren’t even Mao. Plus, the US has done all those things of illegally occupying places (that’s how we got a bunch of states like Hawaii or Texas, as well as territories later like the Philippines), we did more than re-education camps of Native Americans, we killed them all and are now helping Israel do their own genocide and occupation in the present day, we have basically taken over the sea in the whole world and kill people who don’t agree (like Yemeni civilians), and have military bases all over including places they don’t want us (like Guantanamo Bay in Cuba), and have massacred civilians protesting peacefully as I said above, and helped other countries do the same, and have people under-fed and poverty stricken in the richest nation in the world.
You say you acknowledge the bad the US has done and then ignore all of them to make it sound like China is the worst places to have ever existed, at the same time an ongoing genocide is happening facilitated by the US. All you’ve proved is you consume propaganda uncritically and without context.
The soldiers weren’t given orders to “murder anyone that moves” or else the tank would’ve run that guy over. Where did you get that?
Tank man stood in front of the tank on June 5th, the massacre happened on June 4th.
I don’t think anyone even died in Tiannamen Square itself. Battles happened in other parts of the city as soldiers defended themselves, though. It wasn’t peaceful like you said earlier, soldiers died.
What was that again about me making shit up? It sounds to me like you’re getting high off you’re own supply.
but at least get the facts straight.
You know what, that’s a good idea. Let’s get the facts straight, shall we? Go ahead and post your sources that actually support your claims. Shouldn’t be a hard thing to do if they’re facts like you say. I’ll be waiting.
And of course similar things happened in the US. We bombed an apartment building. There was the Kent shootings, the Haymarket massacre, Whiskey Rebellion, the incident in Waco, the assassination of Fred Hampton, hell, cop shootings happen every year. Not to mention hundreds of years of slavery where who knows how many were killed.
Lol you really had to do mental gymnastics to come up with any examples at all. I mean you had to go all the back to 1791 to the Whiskey Rebellion (if we’re going back that far then look up the Taiping Rebellion) to find something and then used the Waco Seige of the Branch Davidians cult as an example. The only relevant example you have is the Kent state shooting, and even that’s from 1970 and only 4 people were killed. Even then, I’m honest enough to acknowledge that this event was indeed bad and should be condemned.
And no, Mao is not worse than Hitler.
Highly debatable. Mao has a very good case to top Hitler. He killed way more people and he was just as ruthless. Mao tops Hitler as the worst dictator of the 20th century.
Mismanagement leading to famines is bad and the Cultural Revolution went too far in some places, and China acknowledges those mistakes btw
Somewhere between 40 and 80 million people died under Mao’s reign. That can’t brushed off with an “oopsies”. Also, China still hails this guy as a national hero even though his successor, Deng Xiaoping (who’s responsible for the Tiananmen square massacre), had to literally do a de-Maoization like Khrushchev did with de-Stalinization to save the country from collapse.
but they don’t compare to the targeted genocides, holocaust, and wars of Hitler
Don’t get it twisted, Hitler is one of the most evil men in history. There’s a reason why he reached infamy in history. I’m just pointing out that he wasn’t without rivals during the 20th century, and Mao is one of the very few people with a legitimate case as being the shittiest human of that century.
Plus, the US has done all those things
Wow, you are slow. It’s not a competition. The reason why I brought up those things about China was to demonstrate no matter what examples are brought up about the US, China has an endless bag of atrocities to match or even exceed. That’s not the point because nobody is arguing which country has the worse history, the point of contention was that the person that I replied to originally claimed that the US today is worse than China today when it comes to things like Tienanmen Square massacre and their examples had no relevance to their claim at all.
You say you acknowledge the bad the US has done and then ignore all of them to make it sound like China is the worst places to have ever existed
You don’t need to have a ledger of condemnations so tankies can be satisfied with their perceived proportionate amount of criticism being applied towards China or any country. If an event is worthy of criticism then it should be criticized, simple as. If you’re seething over people condemning an atrocity and drowning yourself in fallacies like whataboutism, then there’s a good chance you either support the atrocities or the entity responsible for committing them.
If you made a post about the Kent State shooting, for example, right now on Lemmy or anywhere else really, you’re not going to get a hoard of Americans or non Americans in the comments crying about “BuT wHaT aBoUt ChInA hYpOcRiTeS?!?”, they’re just going to condemn the event and move on… as they should. But when it comes to doing the same thing for a country like China or Russia, you will always get a hoard of tankies defending the reprehensible acts and crying hypocrisy… even though they themselves are hypocrites.
All you’ve proved is you consume propaganda uncritically and without context.
Ironic coming from you
you made a post about the Kent State shooting, for example, right now on Lemmy or anywhere else really, you’re not going to a hoard of Americans or non Americans in the comments crying about “BuT wHaT aBoUt ChInA hYpOcRiTeS?!?”,
China doesn’t have a penn state day, idiot.
Also china isn’t arming a genocide right now
China doesn’t have a penn state day, idiot.
Penn state? Wtf are you talking about?
Also china isn’t arming a genocide right no
Yes, they are. They’re arming Russia’s genocide in Ukraine and they’re also carrying out their own genocides in both Tibet and Xinjiang.
Can you quit doing holocaust trivialisation? Attrocities have been commited under every ideologies (wanna talk about Congo?). Nazis were the only ones with the explicit goal of ethnic purity
Jesus Fuck, you tankies are god damned children with your logic. More than one thing can be, and in fact are and have been and will be, bad while other things have happened that are also just as bad, if not worse, while not diluting other events, you get that, right? There is more than one atrocity you should be aware of throughout history and every government has been objectively fucking awful, stop sucking so much authoritarian dick. You fuckers are kowtowing cowards.
Can you quit doing holocaust trivialisation?
Pointing out other atrocities in history that are just as, if not more horrific, is not trivialization. The Holocaust is one of the worst events in history, no doubt about it. That being said there are other atrocities in history that have reached that levels in either ruthlessness, death toll, or both. Ignoring the other atrocities in history would just be us trivializing them.
Attrocities have been commited under every ideologies (wanna talk about Congo?).
Yes, they have, and yes, we should talk about them. Belguim’s atrocities in the Congo aren’t talked about nearly enough.
Nazis were the only ones with the explicit goal of ethnic purity
No, this is false. The idea of ethnic purity is something that has been around for a long time. The only unique thing about the Nazis was that they industrialized mass killings while carrying out their genocides.
Tank man stood in front of the tank on June 5th, the massacre happened on June 4th.
They’re always combined together. They’re considered part of the same event.
What was that again about me making shit up? It sounds to me like you’re getting high off you’re own supply.
Journalistic and diplomatic testimony at the time confirms this. It’s pretty accepted by people who were there, including Western journalists. This is one example of a journalist there for the Washington Post at the time who later wrote a piece regretting writing their article in such a way that contributed to the myth that people died in the square.
Lol you really had to do mental gymnastics to come up with any examples at all. I mean you had to go all the back to 1791 to the Whiskey Rebellion (if we’re going back that far then look up the Taiping Rebellion) to find something and then used the Waco Seige of the Branch Davidians cult as an example. The only relevant example you have is the Kent state shooting, and even that’s from 1970 and only 4 people were killed. Even then, I’m honest enough to acknowledge that this event was indeed bad and should be condemned.
I gave more recent examples too. The only reason I went back that far is to show that the US has been shooting at its citizens from the beginning. Keep in mind, China is a lot newer of a country than the US, so it feels fitting. When cou tries are newer, they are a lot more vulnerable to different conflicts and, sadly, these things can result as different factions fight it out. It’s only been around since about the 50’s. And 1970 isn’t that much older than 1989. You act like it’s ancient history.
Highly debatable. Mao has a very good case to top Hitler. He killed way more people and he was just as ruthless. Mao tops Hitler as the worst dictator of the 20th century.
Once again, Mao didn’t kill more than Hitler. Famines are not the same as purposeful targeted genocides. If you want, we can say that US Presidents are worse than both if you add every death resulting from every war, and every post-war famine, civil war, etc that the US has been involved with. You’d add up basically every death from everything that’s happened in all of South America and the Middle-East since the 50’s in there.
Not to mention that the numbers you quoted aren’t reliable. Their sources are dubious and usually CIA funded. Deng’s numbers are a bit more realistic at 16.5 million but still most likely exaggerated because of the downplaying of Mao’s legacy they were doing at the time, like you mentioned. US numbers are usually wild guesses and extrapolations.
And of course they still hail him as a hero. Even if policy-wise he wasn’t the best, he was still a great and successful revolutionary who freed them from an oppressive monarchy, brought them socialism, cut poverty, increased life expectancy, reduced mortality, increased the spread of education and healthcare, and led them on the path to where they are now as an extremely successful country. And yes, they were increasing life expectancy even while he was in charge.
And yes, the US is worse today. They are enabling a genocide. That’s basically the checkmate of atrocities.
Its not a competition, but the point is that these statements and propaganda always start as a way to encourage war and conflict with other countries. Every single time. It’s why China doesn’t celebrate the Kent massacre every year or the Civil War, or things like that that the US does. They don’t have military bases all over the world and aren’t constantly invading and occupying other countries, so they don’t really need the excuse to drum up propaganda as an excuse for war. And while China has a lot of negative points, that’s what makes the US worse that people in it don’t understand: it’s inperialistic nature.
They’re always combined together. They’re considered part of the same event.
Are you really dumb enough to not understand my point with the dates? You made the stupid argument that if there was a really a massacre then why isn’t the tank man dead. This isn’t the “gotcha” you think it is because it shows you don’t understand what happened. The Chinese government gave the soldiers the order to massacre the students protesting on June 4th, tank man and the picture of him happened AFTER the massacre on June 5th.
the myth that people died in the square.
So let me get this straight, your grand argument to justify this massacre is that the people weren’t killed in the square itself but right outside of it? Damn, you sure showed how innocent and glorious the CCP is with this zinger.
I gave more recent examples too. The only reason I went back that far is to show that the US has been shooting at its citizens from the beginning.
You literally had one single relevant example. Even if we take all the other examples you gave and ignore their validity for a second, they still had less deaths combined than the Tienanmen Square massacre.
Keep in mind, China is a lot newer of a country than the US, so it feels fitting.
No way somebody is dumb enough to think China, one of the world’s oldest civilizations, is newer than the US. China didn’t start in 1949.
And 1970 isn’t that much older than 1989. You act like it’s ancient history.
You don’t even know what the topic of conversation is, do you? If you scroll up this thread and read what the original point of contention is, then you’ll quickly realize that it’s about some idiot saying that the US TODAY is worse than China. You citing examples from 1791 to 1970 shows that you either have no idea what the conversation is about or your argument is so weak that you have go that far back to find anything.
Once again, Mao didn’t kill more than Hitler. Famines are not the same as purposeful targeted genocides.
Mao’s death toll is so high that his non famine deaths give the Holocaust’s death toll a run for its money. Let’s do some basic arithmetic:
-
Chinese land reforms: 1 million - 4.7 million
-
Government violence during the Great Chinese Famine: 2.5 million
-
Anti-Rightist Campaign: 550k - 2 million
-
Campaign to Suppress Counterrevolutionaries: 712k - 2 million
-
Three-anti and Five-anti campaigns: 100k
-
Cultural Revolution: 500k - 2 million
That’s bring us to: 5.362 million - 13.3 million
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_China#People’s_Republic_of_China_(since_1949)
So even if we exclude the famine, which we shouldn’t because those deaths are direct result of his policies, his death toll is still either half of that of the Holocaust at best or even higher the Holocaust at worst. When we factor the Great Chinese Famine that he caused, then he’s well and away the greatest killer in history.
If you want, we can say that US Presidents are worse than both if you add every death resulting from every war, and every post-war famine, civil war, etc that the US has been involved with.
Except we’re not going to say because that’s idiotic logic. First of all no, not a single American president comes even close to Mao’s death toll. Second of all, his death toll, like Hitler’s, is a direct result of his policies. These death toll figures don’t include deaths caused by wars. If we included the Chinese Civil war or the host of other wars that he involved in, then he might actually top 100 million death by himself. Thirdly, even IF we did include wars, what kind of clown counts every single death in wars, including the deaths caused be the enemies, as a part of the death toll? Not only that, but including subsequent events as well? That’s stupid.
Not to mention that the numbers you quoted aren’t reliable.
No, they’re extremely reliable. All the estimates are provided by independent research teams and well respected academics who’s full research, sources, and methodology are have been peer reviewed and are available to all who wish to see them. You just want to find any excuse to dismiss the figures because they don’t conform to your tankie biases.
Their sources are dubious and usually CIA funded. Deng’s numbers are a bit more realistic at 16.5 million but still most likely exaggerated because of the downplaying of Mao’s legacy they were doing at the time, like you mentioned. US numbers are usually wild guesses and extrapolations.
Do you actually think successfully arguing that the death toll is “only” 16.5 million is some sort of win? Not only is it sad that you think that, but it’s also a losing battle because that figure is well below what most academics estimate. There’s another thing, simply putting saying “US” or “CIA” in front of everything you don’t like doesn’t discredit the validity or accuracy of those figures or statements whatsoever nor does it make the association inherently bad. These assumptions exclusively exist in the empty minds tankies who think the rest of the world thinks like them, well they don’t.
People understand that despite all it’s flaws, the US is still a liberal democracy that actually has freedom of speech and freedom of the press. This means that academics in the US are extremely reliable because they’re independent researchers who can publish all their research without fear of manipulation or censorship from the government regardless of how the government wishes the results were or how they make the government look.
This isn’t the case in China because it’s an authoritarian country, and so research on touchy subjects is inherently unreliable because it all goes through the great CCP filter. Not to mention that the research on Mao’s astronomical death toll isn’t exclusive to US researchers. Academics all over the world have studied the same material and came up with estimates that are largely in the same range. So no matter what excuse you come up with, they simply won’t mean anything because you’re defending a position that contradicts reality.
successful revolutionary who freed them from an oppressive monarchy
What monarchy lmao? China has been a republic since 1912. I know tankies are ignorant, but do you seriously not know who the communists fought during the Chinese civil war? Because that’s astounding levels of ignorance.
brought them socialism, cut poverty, increased life expectancy, reduced mortality, increased the spread of education and healthcare, and led them on the path to where they are now as an extremely successful country.
Literally all of this is false. Mao’s policies were such massive failures that killed so many people and brought so much suffering that the country was actually on the brink of collapse. After he died, his successor, Deng Xiaoping, had to do a de-Maoization to help save the country. The Chinese economy under Mao was extremely small and stagnant, and China didn’t experience any real economic growth until Xiaoping started liberalizing the economy. In the late 70s and throughout the 80s, he introduced a series of reforms that allowed people to own private property, allowed foreign investment to flow into the country, created “special economic zones” where capitalism ran free, and allowed markets to exist again. Only then did China economic rise start to take off.
You can literally see this in GDP numbers:
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/chn/china/gdp-gross-domestic-product
And yes, they were increasing life expectancy even while he was in charge.
The country went through a genocide that killed 30 million people followed by a civil war that killed 10 million people. The life expectancy in China in 1945 was 33.4 years. Literally any sort of stability would’ve seen a rise in life expectancy. We saw the same thing happen in Russia, Germany, and bunch of countries who exited eras of brutal war. With that being said, Mao wasn’t exactly good for the life expectancy, you clearly see in the country’s life expectancy graphs when the famine happened as well as when his brutal massacres started slowing down:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041350/life-expectancy-china-all-time/
And yes, the US is worse today. They are enabling a genocide. That’s basically the checkmate of atrocities.
China is arming Russia’s genocide in Ukraine as well as committing their own genocides in TIbet and Xinjiang. So if we’re using mental gymnastics make the US indirectly supporting Israel count as enabling genocide, then China has a checkmate x3.
Its not a competition, but the point is that these statements and propaganda always start as a way to encourage war and conflict with other countries.
These atrocities are historical facts, not propaganda, and recognizing them isn’t going to start wars. What kind of idiot thinks that recognizing and condemning an atrocity like the holocaust is propaganda to start a war? If you ever get the self awareness to wonder why nobody likes tankies, this is why.
It’s why China doesn’t celebrate the Kent massacre every year or the Civil War
Nobody is celebrating this massacre you dimwit. People are acknowledging and condemning it because, unlike the US, the Chinese government denies the atrocities it committed and pretends this massacre never happened.
They don’t have military bases all over the world and aren’t constantly invading and occupying other countries,
Yes they literally are. Vietnam, the Philippines, Taiwan, India, Tibet, and the list goes on and on.
And while China has a lot of negative points, that’s what makes the US worse that people in it don’t understand: it’s inperialistic nature.
Clearly, you don’t understand what imperialism is either because if you think China isn’t imperialist then you’re huffing something strong.
-
No. The US is not currently outright massacring citizens.
Could it happen? Sure. Is it happening? No.
deleted by creator
Everyday we see way worse shit happening on the streets of the US. Somehow the crackdown back then on anti-communist academics is an enshrined moment, but people on our streets getting arrested, detained, or killed is just business as usual.
If it’s condensed down to a day then it’s easy to bleat about it since you can point to a single day “where it all happened”. If you spread out the injustice, like instituting unjust laws bill-by-bill, increasing police funding, and ramping up media rhetoric on how crime is out of control and that we need politicians who are “tough on crime” then you get something like the most imprisoned population on Earth, but there isn’t a single focal point to point at, instead multiple contributing factors, so it doesn’t stick out as much.
Agreed, I was hoping to bring attention to the fact that beyond a short attention span, you’d see comparable if not exceeding levels of historic violence
deleted by creator
Tankies talking about Tiananmen Square without whataboutism:
Challenge Level = IMPOSSIBLE
downvotes are from tankies
Let’s not forget Faris Odeh
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faris_Odeh
A picture of Odeh standing alone in front of a tank, with a stone in his hand and arm bent back to throw it, was taken by a photojournalist from the Associated Press on 29 October 2000. Ten days later, on 8 November, Odeh was again throwing stones at Karni when he was shot in the neck by an Israeli soldier.
Why would any kid throw stones at armed soldiers? Where were his parents?
Murdered by Israelis one would assume.
And your assumption is wrong. If you read the article, you’ll see that his parents were alive and well at the time, and so were his 8 other siblings. Apparently this kid developed a habit of doing dangerous stunts like this, and father used to severely beat him many times as a way to deter him from doing more stunts in the future. Shockingly, physical abuse didn’t work, and he ended up being killed by doing another dangerous stunt in the future.
So why did you ask a question you know the answer to?
It was a rhetorical question
careful, that doesn’t fit the narrative
Killed by Israeli.
Actually if you read the article, you would see that this is in fact false, but that won’t stop you from spreading misinformation
Well u did not pay attention to story and see how powerful the picture is. So to make u read the wiki, I had to fill some disinformation about his parents. U fell for it. Lol
“Where are his parents”. Where are your buddy
Uhh Zionist got butt hurt. Could not come up with something?
Definitely smarter than you. Just looking at how logic works in your brain.
>spreads misinformation
>gets called out for it
>“no no it was a 4d chess move to make you look dumb, I’m full of shit I swear”
Yeah okay buddy
You could pick so many more things to criticize China for especially from its past, verifiable events, yet the west always picks Tiananmen Square, making sure to pick the image of the guy standing in front of the tank, but somehow always forgets to show the video of the guy climbing on top of the tank, asking soldiers to turn around to where the protesters are, and somehow forget mentioning that literally half the casualties were soldiers that were set ablaze. Even diplomatic cables at the time either leaked or declassified prove that.
The Tiananmen square massacre is a verified event. We literally have videos and pictures documenting the entire massacre. How much of an idiot do you have to be to believe low level Chinese propaganda about this being fake or a good thing?
So where are said videos of the massacre happening
In his dreams, along with destroying the three gorges dam and not seeing the irony in pretending to care about civilians.
I’ve seen images and footage put out by journalists. I’m just not bothered to re-locate them for the sake of a tankie.
Because they don’t exist. China is winning and you’re just a sore loser
Whataboutism
removed by mod
the guy was blocking the tanks from leaving tiananmen square too
The most intriguing alt-history stuff I’ve read about it was that the protesters were “lefties” protesting the Dengist attempts at liberalization and confucianist reform, because in one of the videos the protesters were singing socialist anthems e.g. 1st international. It looked like the last gasp of the cultural revolution. But I’m not sure how to check any of this (certainly not from the Chinese archives and the rest of the world only has videos…and the cables you mention), it’s probably just another bullshit story to cover up what happened.
removed by mod
“The consensus is also that there was no actual “massacre” in the square.”
oh, so because hundreds of people were killed in the streets just outside the square, that’s alright then, no need to mention it, let’s keep defending the authoritarian state, huh.
removed by mod
the DW article does mention that most of the killings were on the streets outside the square.
you disingenuously cherry-picked your quote to imply there was no massacre at all.
with your demonstrated level of respect for human life, it’s entirely unsurprising that you admire authoritarian violent regimes.
It actually matters where people died because in the square there were unarmed student protesters and outside the square were armed workers battling it out with military which resulted in an almost even split in casualties between workers and military. A massacre entails armed people rounding up unarmed people and just straight up slaughtering people.
removed by mod
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-42465516
"The Chinese army crackdown on the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests killed at least 10,000 people, according to newly released UK documents.
The figure was given in a secret diplomatic cable from then British ambassador to China, Sir Alan Donald.
The original source was a friend of a member of China’s State Council, the envoy says.
Previous estimates of the deaths in the pro-democracy protests ranged from several hundred to more than 1,000."
removed by mod
Love the propaganda around this. Its very dramatic and all. But here in the west its held up as some big thing. The rest of the video never gets played.
You should(n’t) see the gruesome pictures. China is likely very happy that the tank man picture became famous when there were LOADS of other horrible images .
Especially this video where the ‘students’ hijacked a tank and fired it.
That video is really low res. Do you have any sources that prove that the moving object is a tank and that the people are students?
But honestly it doesn’t really matter because running over people because they are protesting a dictatorship is fucking gruesome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre
Demonstrators attacked troops with poles, rocks, and molotov cocktails; Jeff Widener reported witnessing rioters setting fire to military vehicles and beating the soldiers inside them to death.[178] On one avenue in western Beijing, anti-government protestors torched a military convoy of more than 100 trucks and armored vehicles.[179] They also hijacked an armored personnel carrier, taking it on a joy ride. These scenes were captured on camera and broadcast by Chinese state television.[180]
Good old peaceful demonstration strikes again. Luckily those students were not doing anything violent such as holding up a Palestine flag. Then the US media would tell us how violence against them is fully justified
So because the US media justifies the killing of Palestinians, China is justified in killing student protesters, is that what you want to say?
Also, you seem to be arguing that since some demonstrators are acting violent, shooting at, running over and oppressing student protesters are also justified? That sounds like the same logic Zionists use to justify killing Palestinians because some of them might be Hamas. You seem to agree with Zionists quite a lot.
Armed rioters burning cops alive are not “student protesters”.
The US media somehow manages to switch the two around for their propaganda purposes.
You apparently cannot tell the difference either.
And yet the student protesters are being run over despite your claim that only armed rioters are burning cops alive. The exact same reasoning Zionists use to justify killing Palestinians. Like I said, you think exactly like a Zionist, which is funny.
Nice use of selective quoting, the situation had already escalated at that point. From your source, one paragraph before yours:
The advance of the army was again halted by another blockade at Muxidi, about 5 km west of the square. After protesters repelled an attempt by an anti-riot brigade to storm the bridge, regular troops advanced on the crowd and turned their weapons on them. Soldiers alternated between shooting into the air and firing directly at protesters. Soldiers raked apartment buildings with gunfire, and some people inside or on their balconies were shot.
And, from the beginning of the section:
At 9:30 p.m, this army encountered a blockade set up by protesters at Gongzhufen in Haidian District, and made an attempt to break through. Troops armed with anti-riot gear clashed with the protesters and began firing rubber bullets and tear gas, while the protesters in return threw rocks and soda bottles at them. Other troops fired warning shots into the air, which was ineffective.
Who could’ve guessed that people turn violent when you start shooting them 😱
My argument was related to the APC. Which is factually true.
Your quote however is very selective.
On the evening of 2 June, an accident occurred in which a PAP jeep ran onto a sidewalk, killing three civilian pedestrians and injuring a fourth. This incident sparked fear that the army and the police were trying to advance into Tiananmen Square.[159] Student leaders issued emergency orders to set up roadblocks at major intersections to prevent the entry of troops into the centre of the city.[160]
On the morning of 3 June, students and citizens intercepted and questioned a busload of plainclothed soldiers at Xinjiekou. Isolated pockets of soldiers were similarly surrounded and interrogated.[161][56]
The soldiers were beaten by the crowd, as were Beijing security personnel who attempted to aid the soldiers. Some of the soldiers were kidnapped when they attempted to head for the hospital.[160] Several other buses carrying weapons, gear, and supplies were intercepted and boarded around Tiananmen.[160]
At 1 pm, a crowd intercepted one of these buses at Liubukou, and several men raised military helmets on bayonets to show the rest of the crowd.[162] At 2:30 pm, a clash broke out between protesters and police.[163][160] The police attempted to disperse the crowd with tear gas, but demonstrators counterattacked and threw rocks, forcing them to retreat inside the Zhongnanhai compound through the west gate.
Has anyone claimed that the protests were entirely peaceful? Of course some turn violent when you roll in with your army and riot police gun blazing.
And thanks for confirming that it wasn’t a tank.
There really are no excuses for the killing of dozens if not hundreds of civilians and protestors.
And the protests were entirely peaceful to begin with but of course China couldn’t let that continue.
The censorship of the event also speaks a great deal about who’s fault it is.
The protesters on the square did not get shot. The Western media confirms nobody of the peaceful protesters on the square got killed.
Violent rioters who stoned and burnt police did get killed. On day4. There weer already multiple police killed on day3. Even Western media acknowledges all of what I am saying happened.
The censorship of the event also speaks a great deal about who’s fault it is.
The amazing amount of misinformation being spread here says a lot more about how insane the Western brainwashing machine is.
Which western media?
in china they censor it on internet searches. thats why alot of thier netizens use proxies and anti-detect browsers.
My favorite thing to do is to watch liberals read the (very western biased) Wikipedia article on this event. The moment when they realize how many soldiers were killed before the crackdown is always radicalizing for those with even a modicum of intellectual curiosity.
I only see wiki reference 10 soldiers having died - is this the number you’re referring to?
Do you think that’s alot? In my head that’s disproportionately few compared to the [disputed] 100s of civilians that the Chinese government declared dead
According to the linked page with PLA/PAP casualties, there were 15 verifiable deaths (PRC official number is 23). Half of them weren’t directly caused by the protesters, and the other half occurred after troops first opened fire. Truly, I feel quite radicalized.
Consider yourself both radicalised and owned liberal! /s
Can you share that link? I’m curious how the 7 “non directly caused by protesters” died. They just had a random accident? Lovers quarrel? Food poisoning?
Summary is a truck flipped over, supposed friendly fire incident with a non-uniformed soldier, and a heart attack.
According to the official numbers there were ten civilians killed for every state agent of oppression.
I upvoted you, but a source for that statistic would still be nice.
The wikipedia article on the incident was my source.
That’s a pretty big article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre
Can you be more specific? Then I can confidentiality repeat your fact.
“On 19 June, Beijing Party Secretary Li Ximing reported to the Politburo that the government’s confirmed death toll was 241, including 218 civilians (of which 36 were students), 10 PLA soldiers, and 13 People’s Armed Police, along with 7,000 wounded”
under “Death Toll”
Thanks
Liberals are hardly better than the conservatives in the US. They all seem to be naive right wingers.
Killing the villainous authoritarian ork creature CCP is always virtuous and good and needs to be celebrated.
Stopping a tank in front of an unarmed bicyclist until police pull him out of the way is unforgivable genocide.
I had to do it, these people don’t even read their own fake sources.
