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The billionaire class wants a class war against the worker class so they can further shift wealth and power to themselves, but they certainly aren’t going to fight it themselves, and they can’t have a proxy class-war without two sides to fight it. The only way to get two sides is to vilify the less-gullible side by duping the more-gullible side into fighting members of their own class on their behalf.
MAGA rubes are being manipulated into turning against their neighbors. And maybe the left are being manipulated too, maybe I’m too far left to see it.
The left definitely do have a problem with infighting. We can’t even agree on the right way to go about unfucking things. Between accelerationists, revolutionaries and people who still hope for peaceful solutions, between tankies and non-authoritarians, between hardliners and diplomats…
You’d think we could all agree to focus on our common enemy, but whenever anyone suggests a course of action, the discussion quickly becomes laden with epithets and accusations of being a capitalist pawn in some way or other.
Hell, I fully expect someone to misconstrue this very comment as an attempt to undermine leftist goals in some way.
I’m disgusted with lemmy, and the fact revisionist scum like you are allowed here. You are the reason we can’t get anything done.
Revisionist! That’s the word I was trying to think of earlier. Thank you for your contribution <3
Nice
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me: the fuck is a groyper?!?
Neo nazi shit heels from 4chan
From what I’ve been told: Nick Fuentes
fanscultists.
Ugh stop posting this stupid shit. We don’t know enough yet
Enough about what?
I thought it was a made up name for GOP-er aka a member of the republican party. Didnt realize it was more targeted than that. Also, i didnt know who nick fuentes is, so i guess ill count myself lucky
“Groyper” is a corruption of goy / goyim, right? A Yiddish word for non-Jews.
the name is widespread enough to have a wikipedia article
Once again even on lemmy like every other social media, the point is not that anyone else has made up their mind on who he is. It’s the right leading the charge on this. They decided they know exactly every detail of his life points to their radical far left evil bad. All while accusing others of the sin they commit.
There’s no more point in even attempting discourse with the far right. I believe all you can and should do anymore is point out their meta-games. Do not wrestle with pigs. You’re both covered in shit but the pig is enjoying it.
this is mocking them, not arguing with them… i think it’s good to point out holes in their logic
There is no “logic” with them… one person I spoke with about gun control had said if guns went away people would begin building bombs and using cars to kill people instead and that the number of deaths in this country would go up “10 times higher, probably even 100 times higher” than if we just kept guns. Now you tell me what part of that sounds like logic.
vlc guy u pop
Ok, I am not saying he wasn’t, but would somebody mind explaining to me exactly why everyone is so ready to declare he is right-wing?
He’s from a morman family, but that doesn’t necisserily mean shit, the most left person I know was raised by mormans.
He also was saying Kirk was too hateful. That does not sound like words from a 4chan incel to me.
And the bullet casings were distinctly antifa, also seems like not a right wing nut to me.
I only ask because I am honestly concerned that the rhetoric around his politics is getting hijacked by people trying to make him a right winger to hide the fact that the left is not afraid to kill.
Edit: Thanks to everyone who took the time to explain what indicates he is a Groyper. And thanks in advance to any more info people share!
“Groypers” are what the followers of Nick Fuentes call themselves.
the shit written on the casings were references to memes they pass around in those circles, and there’s other reasons, including his internet activity to say he was a Groyper.
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Shits like a duck, it’s prolly a duck.
What’s strange to me is the grandmother says they are all conservative, and the father says he got increasingly more into politics recently but doesn’t distance himself from it by saying their political beliefs differed.
I would have figured he would want to point out their beliefs differed if they were going to apart of an ongoing investigation.
It’s not that strange if you accept that he’s not a leftist.
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Shits like a duck, it’s prolly a duck.
Well, that’s kind of the problem. As much as I want to believe it, it just doesn’t really fit. The things written to the casings… well I’m sorry, the only people I know writing “OwO what’s this” or “catch this fascist” are very left-wing.
Sure, it may be possible that they also ironically made fun of such things, but it’s definitely not the intuitive thoughtSo the only thing that actually would lead to that is his “internet activity” and yeah, that’s what the original person asked. What activity is known that really shows he was far-right.
that’s just it. The OwO what’s this is mocking furries, and is a meme groypers pass around alot.
“Catch this fascist <arrows>” is from helldiver’s 2, which is a somewhat-over-the-top display of the american kind of liberation. By which I mean, you bomb the shit out of things. the catch this with the arrows is literally the player calling in an orbital nuclear strike. The game is meant for you to understand that you’re not playing the heroes, but a lot of nazis and fascists still enjoy playing it; like how a large number of them love playing WH40k. The game lets them be openly fascist in a way that’s normally frowned on in society.
his internet activity includes being on certain discords in which groypers hung out, as well as comments on social media.
you can cast inferences all you want, but taken as a whole; it’s shaping up to a picture of him being a follower of nick Fuentes.
The OwO what’s this is mocking furries, and is a meme groypers pass around alot
Yeah, but… furries pass it around even more. Writing that on a shell like that would be super in character for many of my friends.
I don’t say that it’s impossible or that such people wouldn’t also do that in a mocking way. But saying that this is the intuitive thought is just wrong.
So the main answer should be just the activities. Being on certain alt-right Discord servers or something is a unique clear thing only those do. So when asking why he’s considering a groyper, those are the things you should say, since they’re actually… strongly indicating he truly was one and supporting them. Writing this stuff is maybe not a contradiction, but it’s definitely not a proof.
You can’t take it in isolation, though. And that was the point I was making, that you ignored.
If you want to take anyone’s life out of context like that, you can probably make Trump a leftist. You just have to ignore all the RWN bullshit.
Yeah, their governor is claiming he was romantically involved with a trans woman though. Could just be a roommate, but I imagine that would be hard to figure out beyond saying “hey were you guys romantically involved?”. Sounds as if she had been part of tipping off the police or at least giving them group chat messages or such.
Apparently the only source for that claim was a Fox adjacent person. And they are desperate to frame this in some way about being about innocent people.
As far as I’ve heard, the person was literally just his landlord, and was not trans, but just wore an animal onesie lol.
Say whatttt lol.
Didn’t Fuentes deny it though? Not that I’d put it past him to lie, but I don’t think there’s any hard evidence that Robinson was…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Charlie_Kirk#Evidence_and_leads
being able to deny involvement is sorta the point of stochastic terror
First I head about it. Though, would Fuentes really know? Not like he actually knows who most of his groupies are.
During the “Unite the Right” protest, they were loudly “disavowing” Richard Spencer, but at the same time clambering to get his autograph or a picture taken with him. I wouldn’t trust a denial from that side.
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Shits like a duck, it’s prolly a duck.
You reminded me of this: https://youtu.be/YbaTur4A1OU
Supposedly the Fuentes lot had co-opted “Bella Ciao”, a classic and beautiful anti fascist song, for their own memes or whatever.
I listen to a lot of Knowledge Fight, where Fuentes is a recurring idiot, and haven’t heard of this there, but I am not a studious listener.
I hope you get another comment from someone who knows way more than I have picked up, but from what I can tell he apparently wore a Pepe costume and Nick Fuentes apparently was suggesting Kirk was a fascist. I’m not sure what Nick’s actual politics are other than despicable, but apparently he didn’t like how Kirk was doing fascism so I guess you can think Kirk is a fascist and support Fuentes. People are taking that and the furry aspect of the alleged engravings because apparently Fuentes fans lean into being furries. So overall it seems like a Pepe costume, furry reference, and fascist critiques are being interpreted by some to suggest groyper. Admittedly, I am not thoroughly convinced, but “If you’re reading this you’re gay LMAO” is some generic 4chan trash that I can’t imagine any actual anti fascists would want to be tied to. Stranger things have happened though.
To be specific, he wore an outfit and squatted in the style of a slav squat for Halloween in 2017, which was a popular meme at the time. Yes, there was a pepe slav squat meme. But if you look at the hat he’s wearing, it will match the hats worn by slav squat and not the pepe meme, which I think was actually a hoodie
EDIT: i guess I was thinking of a Halloween costume from another year
They’re talking about this one:
Bruh what the hell is this.
Yeah my bad, I was thinking of another one, this is new to me. Thanks for sharing.
He also was saying Kirk was too hateful
This information comes from a misquotation. One example of the story with this information has the full context:
Cox said that a family member of Robinson had told investigators that at a recent family dinner, Robinson had mentioned Kirk’s upcoming event at Utah Valley University, and “they talked about why they didn’t like him and the viewpoints that he had,” Cox said. “The family member also stated Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate.”
Note that the family member is the one who said “Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate.” But it has been repeatedly misattributed.
Lefty ex Mormons absolutely exist. And I’ve met several here. But I think all of them, if they were being honest. Would absolutely tell you that they are the exception and not the rule.
4chan incells constantly say everyone who disagrees with them are too hateful because they push back against what the incells say.
The memes on the bullets weren’t clearly antifa. As others have pointed out they’re ironic cultural re-appropriations by fuentez’s community. Precisely because it muddies things and implicates those they see as enemies. It’s a common, fascist tactic to distort and dilute the meaning of things.
There’s been nothing meaningful and verified found that implicates him as a leftist. No literature, no behavior.Or any meaningful indicators whatsoever. Just speculation from someone at Fox and “LOL memes“.
Don’t get me wrong, there’s been Some information possibly from the other side, such as the Photoshop of him in a Trump shirt that has been proven fake.
No one is trying to portray it as the left not being able to kill or commit acts of terror. Everyone is simply pushing back on clear, transparent, fascist propaganda to victimize innocent people. Justifying the violence, they’re already committing. Had much of the media sphere and the President of the United States not already tried using this as a justification to continue attacking innocent people. I would agree with the caution on assumption of the kids political leanings. But, civilly pushing back against fascists is no vice.
I’ve been wondering about this too, thought I was just out of the loop but nothing I can find from a reputable source has really made me think he’s a right winger.
Like, maybe we can’t say for sure but to insist he’s actually extremely far right seems like a wild leap.
Yeah makes me feel this place isn’t much better than tankies. I’d like to have better proofs instead of jumping to conclusions just like that.
Just because you can’t hear the dog whistle does not mean it doesn’t exist. The thing with Groypers, and many white nationalists over the past decade, is that they’re full of ironic memes, co-opting liberal media, and hidden language as a tactic to confuse people like you into believing they’re not an extremist movement at all
I’m not saying the shooter definitely isn’t a groyper or whatnot, I’m saying that meme forensics seem a bit of an odd way to definitively decalre someone in one group or another.
Especially when that group is really transphobic and your romantic partner is trans.
I dunno but it strikes me like anyone declaring they know this guy’s motivations one way or the other is probably just seeing what they want to see.
Edit: Okay, and now they’ve released the text exchanges and stuff. Seems pretty darned clear he’s Left wing, not Right. (Can you really imagine a far Right killing Kirk would be doing so because they “had enough of his hatred. Some hate can’t be negotiated out” ?)
https://atty.utahcounty.gov/cms/uploads/TJR_Information_49872215e3.pdf
Can you really imagine a far Right killing Kirk would be doing so because they “had enough of his hatred. Some hate can’t be negotiated out” ?
Yeah I can actually. A young white man radicalized by years of being terminally online in groyper spaces who already hated Charlie Kirk for not being extreme enough, who then started to date a trans woman (if the feds are to be believed on this at all). All the trans romantic partner angle gives is a more clear motive, but doesn’t actually explain his radicalization to the point of a targeted killing. Being a groyper does.
To each their own I guess. This sounds like really motivated reasoning, in that you started with the end you want and then worked backwards. Right now, your hope is that the shooter is actually a fan of Fuentes despite being in a transgender relationship, despite being on the more extreme side is saying he’s doing it because some hate can’t be negotiated out (implying that he’s actually calling for more hatred and naming it as such, which most folks on these sides don’t do) while ignoring his parents claims that he’s getting more into Left wing politics.
Or, y’know, a kid who intended to get away with it, wrote some memes from a semi plausible group on bullets in an attempt to blame the Far Right.
I’m not saying your version is impossible but it does beggar belief. It’s like when my uncle defends trump and invokes all manner of wild conspiracies to do so, what he’s saying isn’t impossible it just requires a bunch of wild coincidences etc.
Not really, but this seems more like projection to me.
There is only thing I know for sure and it’s that the shooter wasn’t a leftist. There is nothing about him that suggests him being a leftist, and certainly nothing that would suggest he’s been radicalized to the point of a targeted killing by the left. The only thing you have to go on is what the state and federal investigators say they have, which they obtained through a source they didn’t name.
this seems more like projection to me.
My goodness, I think you’re right!
You’re not making this determination based on the evidence, you’re belief is that because you’re a leftist and wouldn’t use violence and you don’t feel the other leftists with whom you interact would assassinate someone, it would take some crazy radicalization to do so. Goypers on the other hand, you feel are hate filled, already extreme and thus ready to kill people.
Is there anything that is actually conclusive about what his views were? Like his social media accounts, his discord history?
None. There is zero definitive evidence of which side of the aisle he is on. The right wants him to be left and the left wants him to be right. Some on the right want justice, some want vengeance. Most on the left are celebrating either way, some didn’t agree with Kirk but didn’t believe he should die for his views.
Then you have the people in the center of the aisle that just want to be left alone and don’t care. Both the left and right hates these people.
some didn’t agree with Kirk but didn’t believe he should die for his views.
I just need to call this part out because it keeps getting repeated. I don’t think hardly anybody thinks he deserved to die for his views. His actions, on the other hand, really get people’s attention.
Yeah, no one should die for their views, but also, I aint gonna more some fuckong fascist jackass or even cry over it in anyway. I am, frankly, mostly indifferent to it. Its not going to make anything better ultimagely, somenother talking idiot hole will fill the gap in the hate machine.
That’s a fair assessment.
And a fair chance he isn’t on any side in particular. The team sports model of politics isn’t everything…
Completely agree. I’m a center aisle guy myself. Hell, I don’t even wanna be center. I don’t even wanna be in the same room 😂
You got downvoted because everyone on the left thinks ‘I’m centrist’ is just something ppl say to disguise themselves whilst they say a bunch a right-wing shit; everyone on the right thinks the war has already begun, you gotta nail your flag to the mast, and why hide how you really feel; and everyone who’s actually in the centre gave up discussing politics on social media years ago because it’s detrimental to your mental health.
I got downvoted because I’m a big bag of contradictions. I’m neither “this” or “that” I hold beliefs and views from all sides. So it’s easier for folks to just downvote and belittle than try to understand.
Oh really? Well you’ve made me think about the issues I split out into sides:
- climate change: it’s bad / fuck it
- trans ppl: they cool / they’re a perversion of gods design
- God: idk whatever / The Christian God
- guns: dangerous! Restrict! / I need guns
- immigration: ok / not ok
- women: human / subhuman
- state funded healthcare: yes plz / no tnx
- public transport: love it / hate it
- bikes: I am literally a bike / I literally just killed a bike
These aren’t all aligned. Probably not all of them are a left/right divide to you. They’re probably not even all 100% applicable to your lived reality - not everybody has spent much time thinking about God - but I am curious where you think you’re left and where you think you’re right, or what I’m missing from my incredibly glib yet serious list.
climate change: it’s bad /
fuck it
trans ppl: they cool /they’re a perversion of gods design
God: idk whatever /The Christian God
guns: dangerous! Restrict! /I need guns
immigration: ok /not ok
women: human with all human rights especially reproductive rights /subhuman
state funded healthcare: yes plz /no tnx
public transport: love it /hate it
bikes: I am literally a bike /I literally just killed a bikeding ding (ringing my bike bell)
Ok first I wanna commend you for actually trying to understand. Even if pretending. It means a lot. To answer your list.
Climate change- no opinion. It changes daily. Or I’m just too dumb to understand it.
Trans ppl- I am a Christian so naturally I don’t agree with it. BUT, I am not like the crazed lunatic Christians that will belittle them, berate them and talk down upon them. Or tell them they are a “perversion of Gods creation” or an abomination. They’re still human. I am human also. Who am I to judge?
God- I am a Christian. More specifically a Southern Baptist Christian. Like I said previously though, I like to think not like some of the crazed lunatic Christians out there. From an early age I was taught to love all walks of life. My church has a saying. Be it cliche or whatever. But the saying is this— “Hate the sin. Love the sinner.”
Guns- Absolutely dangerous. I’m Pro-2A. There’s some unhinged ppl out there that just shouldn’t own firearms. Mental health evaluation and gun safety courses should be mandatory before being able to purchasing any firearm.
Immigration- 1000% ok. But only when done through the proper and legal channels. My family immigrated to the US many years ago from Ireland so I cannot get on board with illegal immigration.
Women- Human, obviously. None of us would be here without them.
State funded healthcare- not educated enough on this matter to have an opinion.
Public transport- could work in larger cities/metro areas. But what about rural areas? How well would that work? Genuinely asking.
Bikes(?)- motor or pedal? I don’t understand this one.
Aisle is the word you are looking for.
i honestly don’t care, i am celebrating either way.
the pure glee I felt when I saw what happened is a tad worrisome but ultimately it feels like it’s a +1 for humanity
Its not a post truth world. Its just a couple of post truth countries.
And when It comes to lies and bullshit. The fire hose of falsehood leads back to Moscow
We’ve been post truth since 2016; at this point MAGA are just choosing whatever they want as their reality, and look what a horrible reality they believe. We must not allow their vision of reality to be imposed on us all.
They want a reason to declare civil war so badly
It was Serbian alien from planet Nibiru (whole universe is Serbian, God is serbian too) you don’t believe me, ask Jovanka Jolić she knows everything.
The only reliable thing is the truth so find it and stick with it. Ignore the rest.
I never spend a dime trying to keep up with bull and I’m not about to start, MAGA or not.
“You can’t kill the truth. Well, you can, but it always comes back to haunt you.”
Its taking way too long on the haunting part IMO.
Is it? We’re getting increasingly destructive weather patterns, that’s the truth about climate change hitting us. We’re getting constant school shootings, that’s the truth about gun control and sicjak alienation and radicalization hitting us. Prices are skyrocketing, that’s the truth about tariffs.
Reality is fucking our country in the ass like it’s Folsom, but we keep lying to ourselves
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