Electronics manufactures must from Saturday fit all devices sold in the EU with USB-C charger ports in a bid by the 27-nation bloc to reduce waste and cut costs for consumers, who will no longer have…
My only concern with this law, is that what happens when USBC is no longer the best option. Idk how to express what I’m saying but what if USB-G ends up being 1000x as fast. Does this law allow for chargers to evolve and if so, how? I admit I haven’t looked into this but I’ve been wondering about it.
I’m 99% wireless these days so I wouldn’t be surprised if chorded chargers are largely on their way out, but I’m still curious.
Manufacturers are allowed to add supplementary charging standards on top of USB-C PD, and the commission is required to review the landscape every 5 years to see if a new technology is better than USB-C that should be adopted in the future
Manufacturers are allowed to add supplementary charging standards on top of USB-C PD
Controversial opinion: I wish this wasn’t the case. So many different proprietary protocols, most of the time you’ll still need a specific adapter, and in some cases even a proprietary cable to utilize the full speed, and nowadays most devices come without the adapter.
And there’s even PPS in the PD spec allowing to request for a specific voltage rather than something in an existing list.
But I do also have some personal grievances here:
Mi TurboCharge - This may be something based on PD, but still being something separate. I don’t know, but I do know it requires more pins than USB-A has. 5 pins. Somewhere I read this is connected to a CC pin in the USB-C connector. But no, they did not use USB-C, they used USB-A, with an extra pin. Only shortly before the phone died I finally figured out why it wasn’t charging as fast as expected - I wasn’t using their proprietary cable.
My current phone’s interference (?) with Qualcomm QC 2.0 - Somehow when using a cable with non-perfect connection on QC-compatible adapters, when I move the USB-A connector, it starts triggering 12V mode until it finally shows overvoltage error and slows down to 7W. QC 2.0 is how my USB tester identifies it. This is a MediaTek-based device, so I don’t think it would support QC. The original adapter uses PD and some 11V 6A thing with unknown protocol. Perhaps that is where the problem originates, I don’t know what data it sends down. But testing with OTG adapter on the original brick it seems the protocol needs the extra pins of USB-C to work properly.
I’ve had 3 phones that supported some fast charging, so far 2 of them made it into a confusing mess. Had they all used just PD it would have been a better experience.
I agree, but at least requiring USB PD, as it’s written, will at least give you 240 watt USB-C charging if they offer higher than 240 watt charging through a proprietary standard
If you have a cable that supports it, which is not usually obvious. And if you have a charger that supports it, which tends to be easier, but again, not always obvious. And don’t even start on transfer speeds or whether or not it’ll support lower usb standards like keyboards and mice. (I have a fairly high end cable that supports the highest speed data transfers but a keyboard will not work on it)
Micro was the worst connector I’ve used, and I’m happy for its demise, but at least I knew what I was getting when I plugged it in.
Transfer speed isn’t part of this regulation, but yeah, making it clearer on the box the max power output on chargers and cables would be a good continuation of the requirements
3.2. ensure that any additional charging protocol allows forthe full functionality ofthe USB Power Delivery referred toin point 3.1, irrespective ofthe charging device used.
And they’re using recommendations from the USB consortium, which is comprised of all the large manufacturers in the world, so it should always be up to date during the review process.
USB-C doesn’t have speeds, it’s just a connector type. USB 1, 2, 3-3.2, 4 etc. is the protocol responsible for speed. You can have a USB-C connector with any implementation (except maybe USB 1). It can even do DisplayPort stuff.
So for USB-C to become irrelevant we need to come up with a better connector form factor. Which is unlikely to happen soon. But also, same thing happened with USB-B Micro connector (colloquially called micro USB), it was designated as a standard (but Apple managed to get an exemption) and manufacturers had no issues moving to a better connector, which is USB-C.
Even with this graphic, I still don’t know what they support. Is circle-20 also 20gbps? What is the speed when there’s no number? Do the non-DP ones not support displays at all? And there appears to be no such thing as USB4-DP?
And good luck getting your grandmother to identify any of this over the phone. “Is it marked SS-subway diagram-20, or circle-20-subwaydiagram? Yes it’s etched gray on slightly different gray, go put on your strongest glasses first, grandma.”
Also, who’s at reading distance from a USB port half the time? Sometimes they’re on the front of a device, but they’re just as often hidden behind something or in a hard-to-reach place. Monitors and PCs come to mind.
MagSafe/Qi2 is definitely convenient, but you have to be wary of its downsides. 2 of which are:
wireless induction wastes a good amount of energy being transferred
wireless induction additionally heats up the battery and reduces its lifespan
But the good news is, it’s basically the defacto standard. Since Apple opened up this standard it pretty much killed all the competition. The adoption is expected to increase in the coming years.
I wouldn’t have even known what to google to learn this. Thanks for sharing! I actually love the C form factor I didn’t realize that was kinda what made it C and not what it could do. I appreciate your response.
The plug will be the same, bet money. There are already several sorts of USB-C. And think on this, the USB-A has had the same shape for going on 30-years.
This, USB-C is just the connector shape. USB-A is the standard square plug everyone knows, USB-B has several different ends, some more well known than others. The full sized “printer/hub” one, mini-B and micro-B which more people know. USB-A to A cables aren’t common, more akin to an Ethernet crossover cable, so you’re almost always going to see one of the B connectors.
USB-C is just the newest plug design, the actual cable and communication protocols have changed numerous times over the decades. USB-C might have been introduced alongside USB 3.0 and the massive increase in charging and data speeds with the new standard, but they are not exclusive.
The most obvious example is probably the iPhone 15 and 16, both had a USB-C plug, but the devices only supported USB 2.0 protocols.
I believe USB A-to-A cables actually violate the USB spec and should not in fact ever exist. They definitely should not exist as a straight-through cable (although obviously they still do in reality) without any active electronics in the middle. Male A plugs are solely for connecting to a host device, and the entire purpose of the spectrum of B plugs in their various guises is specifically to make the other end of the cable that goes into the endpoint device different. The point is that you are not supposed to be able to directly connect two hosts together like that.
A straight through dumb A-to-A cable would connect the +5v pin from the host device directly to the +5v pin on the device on the other end of the cable. If you did this between two host devices (i.e. two computers) it is certainly possible that Bad Things would happen if the designers of both devices did not account for this type of stupidity. The only way one of these can be valid according to the spec is to omit the power pins entirely.
That said, I have a particular flashlight that came with exactly one of these naughty cables: A straight through male USB A-to-A cable with no smarts in it whatsoever. The flashlight charges via a USB-A port which is exceptionally bizarre, and I suspect the reason it does so is because it can also act as a power bank and the manufacturer was too cheap to include a type C or micro B or whatever port for input and a separate type A port for output. But now I’m stuck having to use the moronic cable it came with (which is also only like 14" long) without much hope of ever finding an alternative or replacement…
Invalid USB-A male to USB-A male cables are also commonly used on low cost KVM switches.
The one I got from Amazon has two of them - one for each computer, then the other end of each cable connects to the switch. The switch has its own micro-USB power supply but it is optional, so the cables must pass power
Yeah I remember back before CD-R was widespread, having only 3.5" floppies a Zip 100 drive, trying to look into how to move files from our old family computer to a new one.
I did find some sort of software at Best Buy or Circuit City, someplace like that, which used an A-A cable to directly connect two systems.
Yep. These were a stopgap in the days when normal users could not be expected to have a functional home network of any sort. Those were indeed active devices, and had a lump in the middle of the cable that basically amounted to an integrated USB hub.
Speaking of illegal weird cables: I actually have a Y shaped cable, USB Type-A male to USB Type-A female with an extra red USB Type-A male to inject more power if the host can’t power the device otherwise.
I’ve used it once to attach an external HDD to an Android Phone with an OTG male micro-B to female A adapter. It worked but it was kind of stupid :-D
Male to female A-to-A cables are pretty common (they’re just basic extensions) and totally legal under the spec provided they’re limited to a certain length or contain a powered repeater. It’s just the rare male-to-male (which my keyboard stupidly uses) and even rarer female-to-female that aren’t legal. There’s also the exception of USB-on-the-go cables with a micro-B end and a female A end for devices like smartphones that are capable of being host or connecting to a host, back before they switched to USB-C.
There’s only so much power you can put through such a small connector. I could certainly see a high end gaming laptop requiring more than 240W since GPUs keep getting more power hungry. They could increase the voltage a bit, but I doubt they will go much higher.
Fair point but even though it seems USB-C caps out at 5A, it’s quite possible the voltage could be even higher when higher quality materials are used for the existing connector along with controllers that, say, check the resistance before asking for said higher voltage, thus delivering higher wattage. Also keep in mind that the general trend is efficiency, especially with ARM gaining serious momentum.
You should verify this, but I think there is like a consortium of sorts made up of tech companies that pick a standard that they all must follow. So in the future, it’s possible for them to pick a new standard, and then after a transition period everything would be required to switch (though of course you could still continue using old devices, they just can no longer be sold new).
The new law allows you to have more than one charging connector provided that either the USB-C one is the best one, or the USB-C one is as good as the spec allows. If the new connector’s genuinely better, then it’ll beat a maxed-out USB-C connector, so devices will provide it in addition to a maxed-out USB-C connector.
uh huh and when the company is sued into oblivion proving their tech is better then what? the problem with laws like this (and I generally support it) is that they give bad actors ways to club others to stifle competition.
Sued for following the law and making sure the required connector is present and functional? Unless I’m missing something, the law doesn’t require the port be exclusive. I mean, if it did, they’d have to stop including wireless charging, and I don’t see that happening.
Yes, its additional cost which acts as a moat by increasing development costs. now you need to design your new connector and make sure its compatible with the existing standard.
If I’m a company who builds widgets and this new startup will have a better design you damn well bet i’m going to sue them to increase costs and decrease the likely hood they’ll succeed.
Starting today, all new mobile phones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones, speakers, keyboards and many other electronics sold in the EU will have to be equipped with a USB Type-C charging port,"
Fair. I only use cables, but my assumption would be that they would adapt to new standards. Which is effectively what this is doing to standardize it, IMO.
This is an interesting article, but I think that this standardisation is exactly for port being the same, not for pinning specific implementation of the 600+ pages long standard.
USB-C standardizes only a connector. Thats good since there’s a lot of room to evolve the standard while keeping at least physical compatibility, but also bad because now we’re back to a stiuation where we have things that fit together but maulnot be entirely compatible. I suppose there’s a minimum base and a negotiation process so things should somewhat work plus tend to improve over time.
My only concern with this law, is that what happens when USBC is no longer the best option. Idk how to express what I’m saying but what if USB-G ends up being 1000x as fast. Does this law allow for chargers to evolve and if so, how? I admit I haven’t looked into this but I’ve been wondering about it.
I’m 99% wireless these days so I wouldn’t be surprised if chorded chargers are largely on their way out, but I’m still curious.
Manufacturers are allowed to add supplementary charging standards on top of USB-C PD, and the commission is required to review the landscape every 5 years to see if a new technology is better than USB-C that should be adopted in the future
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv%3AOJ.L_.2022.315.01.0030.01.ENG&toc=OJ%3AL%3A2022%3A315%3ATOC
Awesome! I knew by commenting someone educated would come along. Thank you very much.
It’s like when I make it rain or snow by washing my vehicle! I’m giving you part of the credit for it being future-focused…
⛈️
Controversial opinion: I wish this wasn’t the case. So many different proprietary protocols, most of the time you’ll still need a specific adapter, and in some cases even a proprietary cable to utilize the full speed, and nowadays most devices come without the adapter.
And there’s even PPS in the PD spec allowing to request for a specific voltage rather than something in an existing list.
But I do also have some personal grievances here:
Mi TurboCharge - This may be something based on PD, but still being something separate. I don’t know, but I do know it requires more pins than USB-A has. 5 pins. Somewhere I read this is connected to a CC pin in the USB-C connector. But no, they did not use USB-C, they used USB-A, with an extra pin. Only shortly before the phone died I finally figured out why it wasn’t charging as fast as expected - I wasn’t using their proprietary cable.
My current phone’s interference (?) with Qualcomm QC 2.0 - Somehow when using a cable with non-perfect connection on QC-compatible adapters, when I move the USB-A connector, it starts triggering 12V mode until it finally shows overvoltage error and slows down to 7W. QC 2.0 is how my USB tester identifies it. This is a MediaTek-based device, so I don’t think it would support QC. The original adapter uses PD and some 11V 6A thing with unknown protocol. Perhaps that is where the problem originates, I don’t know what data it sends down. But testing with OTG adapter on the original brick it seems the protocol needs the extra pins of USB-C to work properly.
I’ve had 3 phones that supported some fast charging, so far 2 of them made it into a confusing mess. Had they all used just PD it would have been a better experience.
I agree, but at least requiring USB PD, as it’s written, will at least give you 240 watt USB-C charging if they offer higher than 240 watt charging through a proprietary standard
If you have a cable that supports it, which is not usually obvious. And if you have a charger that supports it, which tends to be easier, but again, not always obvious. And don’t even start on transfer speeds or whether or not it’ll support lower usb standards like keyboards and mice. (I have a fairly high end cable that supports the highest speed data transfers but a keyboard will not work on it)
Micro was the worst connector I’ve used, and I’m happy for its demise, but at least I knew what I was getting when I plugged it in.
Transfer speed isn’t part of this regulation, but yeah, making it clearer on the box the max power output on chargers and cables would be a good continuation of the requirements
Mostly. There was some nonsense about fast charging if the data lines were shorted together that made things weird from time to time.
From Annex Ia of directive:
3.2. ensure that any additional charging protocol allows for the full functionality of the USB Power Delivery referred to in point 3.1, irrespective of the charging device used.And they’re using recommendations from the USB consortium, which is comprised of all the large manufacturers in the world, so it should always be up to date during the review process.
USB-C doesn’t have speeds, it’s just a connector type. USB 1, 2, 3-3.2, 4 etc. is the protocol responsible for speed. You can have a USB-C connector with any implementation (except maybe USB 1). It can even do DisplayPort stuff.
So for USB-C to become irrelevant we need to come up with a better connector form factor. Which is unlikely to happen soon. But also, same thing happened with USB-B Micro connector (colloquially called micro USB), it was designated as a standard (but Apple managed to get an exemption) and manufacturers had no issues moving to a better connector, which is USB-C.
On the downside, you can’t tell what the port supports by just looking at it.
Even with this graphic, I still don’t know what they support. Is circle-20 also 20gbps? What is the speed when there’s no number? Do the non-DP ones not support displays at all? And there appears to be no such thing as USB4-DP?
And good luck getting your grandmother to identify any of this over the phone. “Is it marked SS-subway diagram-20, or circle-20-subwaydiagram? Yes it’s etched gray on slightly different gray, go put on your strongest glasses first, grandma.”
Also, who’s at reading distance from a USB port half the time? Sometimes they’re on the front of a device, but they’re just as often hidden behind something or in a hard-to-reach place. Monitors and PCs come to mind.
It’s not like they’re going to change when you’re not looking.
USB4 supports DP and TB3.
Was wondering about thunderbolt. Found this, which I interpret as
usb 4 40 = thunderbolt 4
Wow what a marketing
scumtrick to show all compatible older generations as separate productsI liked the magnetic apple connectors.
I hate Apple though.
You can have both, like MacBooks do
The original MagSafe is great. I still have it on my laptop.
Very much in favor of the mag induction charging! That should be a standard for wall plugs as well
MagSafe/Qi2 is definitely convenient, but you have to be wary of its downsides. 2 of which are:
But the good news is, it’s basically the defacto standard. Since Apple opened up this standard it pretty much killed all the competition. The adoption is expected to increase in the coming years.
I wouldn’t have even known what to google to learn this. Thanks for sharing! I actually love the C form factor I didn’t realize that was kinda what made it C and not what it could do. I appreciate your response.
Wikipedia is a good resource
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB
The plug will be the same, bet money. There are already several sorts of USB-C. And think on this, the USB-A has had the same shape for going on 30-years.
This, USB-C is just the connector shape. USB-A is the standard square plug everyone knows, USB-B has several different ends, some more well known than others. The full sized “printer/hub” one, mini-B and micro-B which more people know. USB-A to A cables aren’t common, more akin to an Ethernet crossover cable, so you’re almost always going to see one of the B connectors.
USB-C is just the newest plug design, the actual cable and communication protocols have changed numerous times over the decades. USB-C might have been introduced alongside USB 3.0 and the massive increase in charging and data speeds with the new standard, but they are not exclusive.
The most obvious example is probably the iPhone 15 and 16, both had a USB-C plug, but the devices only supported USB 2.0 protocols.
I believe USB A-to-A cables actually violate the USB spec and should not in fact ever exist. They definitely should not exist as a straight-through cable (although obviously they still do in reality) without any active electronics in the middle. Male A plugs are solely for connecting to a host device, and the entire purpose of the spectrum of B plugs in their various guises is specifically to make the other end of the cable that goes into the endpoint device different. The point is that you are not supposed to be able to directly connect two hosts together like that.
A straight through dumb A-to-A cable would connect the +5v pin from the host device directly to the +5v pin on the device on the other end of the cable. If you did this between two host devices (i.e. two computers) it is certainly possible that Bad Things would happen if the designers of both devices did not account for this type of stupidity. The only way one of these can be valid according to the spec is to omit the power pins entirely.
That said, I have a particular flashlight that came with exactly one of these naughty cables: A straight through male USB A-to-A cable with no smarts in it whatsoever. The flashlight charges via a USB-A port which is exceptionally bizarre, and I suspect the reason it does so is because it can also act as a power bank and the manufacturer was too cheap to include a type C or micro B or whatever port for input and a separate type A port for output. But now I’m stuck having to use the moronic cable it came with (which is also only like 14" long) without much hope of ever finding an alternative or replacement…
Invalid USB-A male to USB-A male cables are also commonly used on low cost KVM switches.
The one I got from Amazon has two of them - one for each computer, then the other end of each cable connects to the switch. The switch has its own micro-USB power supply but it is optional, so the cables must pass power
Extra crispy. I wonder if a replacement cable for one of those will work with my flashlight. It probably will.
Yeah I remember back before CD-R was widespread, having only 3.5" floppies a Zip 100 drive, trying to look into how to move files from our old family computer to a new one.
I did find some sort of software at Best Buy or Circuit City, someplace like that, which used an A-A cable to directly connect two systems.
Yep. These were a stopgap in the days when normal users could not be expected to have a functional home network of any sort. Those were indeed active devices, and had a lump in the middle of the cable that basically amounted to an integrated USB hub.
Why not a serial null modem cable and zmodem?
Speaking of illegal weird cables: I actually have a Y shaped cable, USB Type-A male to USB Type-A female with an extra red USB Type-A male to inject more power if the host can’t power the device otherwise.
I’ve used it once to attach an external HDD to an Android Phone with an OTG male micro-B to female A adapter. It worked but it was kind of stupid :-D
Those used to be common for stuff like external drives (HDD, DVD…)that needed more power than old USB ports could provide, so they used two
Male to female A-to-A cables are pretty common (they’re just basic extensions) and totally legal under the spec provided they’re limited to a certain length or contain a powered repeater. It’s just the rare male-to-male (which my keyboard stupidly uses) and even rarer female-to-female that aren’t legal. There’s also the exception of USB-on-the-go cables with a micro-B end and a female A end for devices like smartphones that are capable of being host or connecting to a host, back before they switched to USB-C.
micro-B SuperSpeed is always a good one to surprise people with.
I have a portable hard drive that uses this. I haven’t bought a new cable yet, limiting me to USB 2 speeds. Bleh.
Using those now! Have 3 drives in a Storage Space, another for backup. (And offsite backups!)
I had not thought of this good point.
There’s only so much power you can put through such a small connector. I could certainly see a high end gaming laptop requiring more than 240W since GPUs keep getting more power hungry. They could increase the voltage a bit, but I doubt they will go much higher.
There’s already docking stations for laptops that use two USB C connectors for exactly this reason.
That’s so janky lol
Fair point but even though it seems USB-C caps out at 5A, it’s quite possible the voltage could be even higher when higher quality materials are used for the existing connector along with controllers that, say, check the resistance before asking for said higher voltage, thus delivering higher wattage. Also keep in mind that the general trend is efficiency, especially with ARM gaining serious momentum.
You should verify this, but I think there is like a consortium of sorts made up of tech companies that pick a standard that they all must follow. So in the future, it’s possible for them to pick a new standard, and then after a transition period everything would be required to switch (though of course you could still continue using old devices, they just can no longer be sold new).
What happens if the better technology is invented by a company not part of that chosen tech club? They get to block it’s adoption?
If it’s really that much better, it’ll be used for other things and catch on, then they’ll be a part of the group.
How can it be used for other things, if this law makes that illegal?
The new law allows you to have more than one charging connector provided that either the USB-C one is the best one, or the USB-C one is as good as the spec allows. If the new connector’s genuinely better, then it’ll beat a maxed-out USB-C connector, so devices will provide it in addition to a maxed-out USB-C connector.
uh huh and when the company is sued into oblivion proving their tech is better then what? the problem with laws like this (and I generally support it) is that they give bad actors ways to club others to stifle competition.
Sued for following the law and making sure the required connector is present and functional? Unless I’m missing something, the law doesn’t require the port be exclusive. I mean, if it did, they’d have to stop including wireless charging, and I don’t see that happening.
Yes, its additional cost which acts as a moat by increasing development costs. now you need to design your new connector and make sure its compatible with the existing standard.
If I’m a company who builds widgets and this new startup will have a better design you damn well bet i’m going to sue them to increase costs and decrease the likely hood they’ll succeed.
It doesn’t. It only applies to “smartphones, tablets and cameras”, according to the article.
Source: the article
Well now I don’t know what to believe. Anyone have a link to the legislation?
https://lemmy.world/comment/14191329
[…] have to be equipped with […]
That does not mean only equipped with
@catloaf
Walkies #hamradio plz
@iii
Fair. I only use cables, but my assumption would be that they would adapt to new standards. Which is effectively what this is doing to standardize it, IMO.
I don’t think that will occur, because what’s the point of developing USB-G if you’re not allowed to use it in a product?
Why wouldn’t they be allowed to use it?
Computers have room for multiple ports and is where a new standard would crop up anyway even without the law, just like where USB-C started out.
deleted by creator
Law does not forbid having multiple charging ports.
USB-C isn’t the best option at all because USB c isn’t USB c. It only standardises the port and connector but there are many different connectors.
https://hackaday.com/2022/12/06/usb-c-introduction-for-hackers/
Thanks for the article, cool read!
It’s crazy, isn’t it? But it’s not a single article… I think there are ten more.
https://hackaday.com/series_of_posts/all-about-usb-c/
This is an interesting article, but I think that this standardisation is exactly for port being the same, not for pinning specific implementation of the 600+ pages long standard.
How fast is the wireless charging these days? I’d be surprised if it’s anywhere near the higher USB PD 3.1 modes.
I’m not sure. I know I could get a high speed one but tossing my phone on at night and currently it lasts all day most days. Same with my watch.
USB-C standardizes only a connector. Thats good since there’s a lot of room to evolve the standard while keeping at least physical compatibility, but also bad because now we’re back to a stiuation where we have things that fit together but maulnot be entirely compatible. I suppose there’s a minimum base and a negotiation process so things should somewhat work plus tend to improve over time.