After months of getting close, the relationship between Trump and his so-called ‘first buddy’ has become ‘fraught,’ according to a New York Times reporter
The intent is to say something that will antagonise Trump. The intent is not to demean women.
Attacking someone who shares your moral platform because you purposefully misinterpret their words to suit a separate agenda is friendly fire.
Transphobia and misogyny are not to be tolerated, do you really think that someone attacking turnip (autocorrect, I’m leaving it) online doesn’t share your views on this?
Stip trying to police speech among your allies. Focus on intent. Stop with the nonsense infighting we are at war rn.
Why are trans people’s feelings less important than feelings of people making jokes online?
I don’t want to be arguing here either, that’s why I’m politely letting folks know that these sort of jokes may alienate their allies. You don’t have to do anything with that information if you don’t want to! Don’t engage with this at all, and feel free to let me know what material good you’ve done to fight for trans rights in the time saved, will you?
They are not just jokes. People posting these things are doing so specifically to antagonise the right.
I’m telling you that your concern trolling is alienating allies.
I have chosen to engage in this just like you chose to deal with the blowback when you posted it.
All I have done to “fight for trans rights” is to speak out when I can, challenge bigotry as I am challenging you right now, stand up and be counted at queer marches/events and raise a daughter who took the only trans kid in her high school to prom.
You don’t know my life and that isn’t the discussion. Stop deflecting and learn to focus on intent.
I don’t put much stock in post votes, but I don’t think a majority popular comment that the person I was replying to already agreed with is, uh, getting blowback. Honestly you seem to be the most hostile one here. If you’d read any of the lovely conversations I’ve already had with folks here, you’d understand that I haven’t blamed anyone for this joke, I am simply communicating what I have heard in the community, and I don’t have any expectations of changes in behavior as a result of this.
It’s not bigotry to call out jokes on the internet, btw. For someone fighting a war on behalf of us all I’d figure this would be lower priority!
I’m going to stop responding to you since you don’t seem to be engaging with the intention to actually listen to minorities, ciao!
I’m also in favor of the viewpoint that the “First Lady Trump” joke was fine. Just felt the need to comment on the last point; I’ve had that sentiment before too, but I’ve also seen danger in the idea that “Because my intentions were positive, I shouldn’t be criticized.” That’s been a defense used by bigots, too. eg, Trump throwing paper towels to disaster victims (even though he certainly didn’t have to take time out of his day to throw paper towels, gee, how nice he is!)
I’d like to hope that in the past 30 days I’ve never said anything racist/bigoted - but I’d also acknowledge the possibility that despite my positive intentions, I may have. It’s only important because these days very few people think themselves to be bigots. Think about the type of person most likely to say things like “I’m not racist!”
Ever found yourself saying, “But that’s not what I meant”?
You aren’t alone. Everyone tends to measure their responses based on their own interpretation of a situation, meaning that unintentional harm is bound to happen — none of us are above an accidental “ouch.”
If someone discloses that you hurt or offended them, the remainder of your relationship, whether it’s professional, romantic, or platonic, can depend on how you handle the situation.
Here’s how to get things back on track:
Listen with the goal of understanding where they’re coming from, not with the goal of defending yourself. It can help to use the active listening technique of repeating back exactly what you hear.
Center their feelings, not yours. It’s normal to feel a little prickly when someone tells you that you did something wrong, and you disagree. But take a beat and a deep breath, and know that you can talk about your feelings later.
Genuinely apologize or acknowledge the impact that your actions had on them. Steer clear of “I’m sorry if,” “I’m sorry you,” or “I’m sorry but,” as these all lack accountability and put the blame on the one who was hurt. A simple “I’m sorry for doing that, and I’ll do better next time” can go a long way.
Stip trying to police speech among your allies. Focus on intent. Stop with the nonsense infighting we are at war rn.
Isn’t that what you’re doing by telling trans people to put up or shut up when ‘allies’ use transphobic/misogynist insults against ‘enemies’
How are we supposed to know that we won’t just become the next acceptable target for misogynistic/transphobic abuse if/when we end up on liberals ‘enemies’ list?
Trump and Elon are buffoons, it’s not hard to mock them without tolerating misogyny to do so.
Well the truth is as the world goes down the shitter you’ll lose allies anyway. People don’t care about these issues when they have to worry about shelter and food.
I don’t think the people being misogynistic to some rich assholes on twitter are worried about shelter or food.
That said I also don’t see how the fact that fair-weather allies will eventually abandon their positions when things get hard is a case against having standards for behavior in the here and now.
It isn’t tolerating misogyny, it’s pointing out misogyny and ridiculing misogynists.
It’s OK if you don’t like how that’s being done, and it’s OK if you can’t understand the nuance but policing my speech unchallenged is not what is going to happen.
I think I got the nuance behind ‘bigoted man I disagree with is actually a woman because women amirite?’.
I’m trans, and like actually hate these people, they deserve ridicule. However, if I’m willing to tolerate bigotry on my behalf towards people that are in some out-group, there’s no guarantee that some day I won’t be among that out-group and subsequently targeted by that type of bigotry. Do you understand the issue I’m raising?
I can’t tolerate people misgendering Caitlen Jenner or Blair white because while they suck, it only contributes to an environment where that type of insult is then considered acceptable.
I think I got the nuance behind ‘bigoted man I disagree with is actually a woman because women amirite?’.
Nope.
It goes like this: ‘bigoted man is bigoted because this will aggravate his orange tits. If bigoted man was not bigoted it would not be possible to rip on him like this.’
Put another way: ‘I am a bigot, said John.’
If that doesn’t clarify it then I’m out of patience to explain further.
The intent is to say something that will antagonise Trump. The intent is not to demean women.
Attacking someone who shares your moral platform because you purposefully misinterpret their words to suit a separate agenda is friendly fire.
Transphobia and misogyny are not to be tolerated, do you really think that someone attacking turnip (autocorrect, I’m leaving it) online doesn’t share your views on this?
Stip trying to police speech among your allies. Focus on intent. Stop with the nonsense infighting we are at war rn.
Why are trans people’s feelings less important than feelings of people making jokes online?
I don’t want to be arguing here either, that’s why I’m politely letting folks know that these sort of jokes may alienate their allies. You don’t have to do anything with that information if you don’t want to! Don’t engage with this at all, and feel free to let me know what material good you’ve done to fight for trans rights in the time saved, will you?
They are not just jokes. People posting these things are doing so specifically to antagonise the right.
I’m telling you that your concern trolling is alienating allies.
I have chosen to engage in this just like you chose to deal with the blowback when you posted it.
All I have done to “fight for trans rights” is to speak out when I can, challenge bigotry as I am challenging you right now, stand up and be counted at queer marches/events and raise a daughter who took the only trans kid in her high school to prom.
You don’t know my life and that isn’t the discussion. Stop deflecting and learn to focus on intent.
I don’t put much stock in post votes, but I don’t think a majority popular comment that the person I was replying to already agreed with is, uh, getting blowback. Honestly you seem to be the most hostile one here. If you’d read any of the lovely conversations I’ve already had with folks here, you’d understand that I haven’t blamed anyone for this joke, I am simply communicating what I have heard in the community, and I don’t have any expectations of changes in behavior as a result of this.
It’s not bigotry to call out jokes on the internet, btw. For someone fighting a war on behalf of us all I’d figure this would be lower priority!
I’m going to stop responding to you since you don’t seem to be engaging with the intention to actually listen to minorities, ciao!
I’m also in favor of the viewpoint that the “First Lady Trump” joke was fine. Just felt the need to comment on the last point; I’ve had that sentiment before too, but I’ve also seen danger in the idea that “Because my intentions were positive, I shouldn’t be criticized.” That’s been a defense used by bigots, too. eg, Trump throwing paper towels to disaster victims (even though he certainly didn’t have to take time out of his day to throw paper towels, gee, how nice he is!)
I’d like to hope that in the past 30 days I’ve never said anything racist/bigoted - but I’d also acknowledge the possibility that despite my positive intentions, I may have. It’s only important because these days very few people think themselves to be bigots. Think about the type of person most likely to say things like “I’m not racist!”
And they are telling you that your lack of empathy is alienating a different set of allies. Those who you seem to claim to be allied with.
I mean, this is 101 stuff.
https://www.healthline.com/health/intent-vs-impact
Listen with the goal of understanding where they’re coming from, not with the goal of defending yourself. It can help to use the active listening technique of repeating back exactly what you hear.
Center their feelings, not yours. It’s normal to feel a little prickly when someone tells you that you did something wrong, and you disagree. But take a beat and a deep breath, and know that you can talk about your feelings later.
Genuinely apologize or acknowledge the impact that your actions had on them. Steer clear of “I’m sorry if,” “I’m sorry you,” or “I’m sorry but,” as these all lack accountability and put the blame on the one who was hurt. A simple “I’m sorry for doing that, and I’ll do better next time” can go a long way.
Isn’t that what you’re doing by telling trans people to put up or shut up when ‘allies’ use transphobic/misogynist insults against ‘enemies’
How are we supposed to know that we won’t just become the next acceptable target for misogynistic/transphobic abuse if/when we end up on liberals ‘enemies’ list?
Trump and Elon are buffoons, it’s not hard to mock them without tolerating misogyny to do so.
Well the truth is as the world goes down the shitter you’ll lose allies anyway. People don’t care about these issues when they have to worry about shelter and food.
I don’t think the people being misogynistic to some rich assholes on twitter are worried about shelter or food.
That said I also don’t see how the fact that fair-weather allies will eventually abandon their positions when things get hard is a case against having standards for behavior in the here and now.
It isn’t tolerating misogyny, it’s pointing out misogyny and ridiculing misogynists.
It’s OK if you don’t like how that’s being done, and it’s OK if you can’t understand the nuance but policing my speech unchallenged is not what is going to happen.
I think I got the nuance behind ‘bigoted man I disagree with is actually a woman because women amirite?’.
I’m trans, and like actually hate these people, they deserve ridicule. However, if I’m willing to tolerate bigotry on my behalf towards people that are in some out-group, there’s no guarantee that some day I won’t be among that out-group and subsequently targeted by that type of bigotry. Do you understand the issue I’m raising?
I can’t tolerate people misgendering Caitlen Jenner or Blair white because while they suck, it only contributes to an environment where that type of insult is then considered acceptable.
Nope.
It goes like this: ‘bigoted man is bigoted because this will aggravate his orange tits. If bigoted man was not bigoted it would not be possible to rip on him like this.’
Put another way: ‘I am a bigot, said John.’
If that doesn’t clarify it then I’m out of patience to explain further.
That’s cool I don’t need any more explanations.