No I think not. But the feeling of freewill do exist and seems universal. So if we have a fact based approach, it does not change much. I think there it a lot of proof that freewill is at least very weak compare to social determinism.
Like yeah, exactly. With the right person, you can talk for hours and hours about all kinds of stuff that interests you.
with the right person you can also be quiet with for hours
One of the best relationships I ever had.
We still don’t talk sometimes
This! Silence is so much better than unnecessary and forced talking
Absolutely, but a lot of people don’t understand that you can’t arrive to that point by not ever “small talking” along the way. Small-talk is how we express to each other how we feel, how we want to be talked to, what we notice around us and so on. It’s a critical component to socializing. Conversations between human beings doesn’t play out narratively like in media and movies, there’s no “point” to conversing with someone you’re close to, you’re just sharing shit.
But also meaningless bullshit. That does not denote a bad relationship.
Exactly. I can’t remember where I heard this - it might have been a podcast like RadioLab or something else - but it was talking about how happily married, intelligent couples talk to each other .
It turns out, it’s not usually super deep, intelligent conversations. The vast majority of conversations are just meaningless bullshit. Most of the time, couples aren’t even really talking to each other, but they’re just kind of thinking aloud. Stupid stuff like, “I swear I saw a dozen blue Volkswagens today.”
It turns out that people who are comfortable with each other don’t need to have deep conversations all the time. They can just relax, unwind, and be themselves.
My partner will talk to herself, loud enough to be audible, but not (to deaf me.) loud enough to be coherent. Drives me fucking insane. I have my ways of driving her insane.
That may be a blessing for the both of you, friend.
Sorry mate, that’s gone right over my head. She’s said to me that “love is putting up with your partners downsides”. I’m a massive pain in the arse, so …
She’s not wrong. I just meant her muttering may be about the downsides. Not always, ofc, because I’m single and still mutter.
Nah, it’s about what she’s doing or whatever’s going on.
The way I understand “Smalltalk” is not whether the subject matter is “serious enough” but rather whether either party actually has any interest in it, or if it is a polite nicety to avoid awkward silence.
Discussing the weather in a car ride with a coworker is smalltalk, contemplating with a friend how one might conquer the world using ant-controlling super powers is not.
This exactly. “Do you think free will exists” could, in fact, be small talk, if neither of you is particularly interested in the topic.
Talk about the stuff that interests you, you know, the small stuff
Small stuff doesn’t really interest me, or my partner.
Doesn’t mean we’re incapable of discussing dinner plans or cleaning schedules.
Was meant as a joke :)
Indeed I can confirm.
Just a few days ago I pondered the life of plants and asked my wife how she thinks the death of a plant is defined if for animals (including humans of course) it’s mostly the heartbeat.
So when is a plant dead?
When you see its little planty soul waft up to heaven.
For hours, every day, for years or decades? That has never happened.
My wife and I will sit in the same room for hours and never speak a word to each other. We only talk when we have something to say, and we’re both happy with that relationship. My sister thinks we’re crazy, but we like it quiet.
My steppairents are like this and beeing with them, at a meal table, and have nobody say anything for 20 Minutes is so fucking wired. I am getting used to it, but it’s still off as fuck.
I’m interested to know the dynamic that causes two step parents to be together like that. Is it one parent and one step parent or a step parent that remarried and now you have a step step parent?
Just two parents to a person named Step.
I like the word “pairents”
Thanks. That’s actually one of my own words, but you can use it all you want if you wish to do so.
“Such weather we’re having huh?”
Truly peak romance
But at least it’s a conversation you can work with “oh yeah it’s so nice we should go do X” or “yeah it’s crazy out there, we should stay in and watch a movie and snuggle” the point of small talk is to open avenues of conversation… I think people just don’t know how to have conversations anymore and chalk it up to “not liking small talk”. Observation and response is a perfectly normal way to start a conversation
I think it’s more about your expectation from interactions with strangers. I will tolerate a ton of weather talk from my wife but if the guy taking my order at 5 Guys tries the same thing it’s not going to be as well received.
Why? I like when strangers try to talk to me honestly
I think I like it more than most but not just to hear words out loud. If you have a story about the weather impacting your day that’s much more interesting than just commenting on it in general.
It’s raining in south latvia btw
Amazing
Yet sunny in central australia
we should go do X
we should stay in and watch a movie and snuggle
That’s not small talk, that’s planning what to do today. You can open the same conversation with “hey, what do you want to do today?”
And how will you plan anything if you don’t know the weather genius???
Most people who “hate small talk” in posts like this have either very specific ideas in their mind of what it means, such as annoying coworkers who talk about quilting or baseball loudly in the next cubicle, or are deeply sour, lonely, cynical shits who think they’re god’s gift to intellectualism and have never had a girlfriend in their life so they can’t imagine what people talk about casually in private, and think that being in a relationship with someone needs to be like, always planning a heist over a map of the city sewer system or talking about geopolitics or lecturing their imaginary waifu about science facts.
I occasionally lecture my 3DPD wife about science facts and she hates it. She’ll say things like “what?” And “I was just asking what we should do for dinner”
You’re married to a droid??
People will also say something stupid about the weather or news or whatever just because they want to express to you that they’re friendly and open to converse. Ignoring “small talk” from a stranger is like actively rejecting someone’s desire to connect. What are they supposed to say if they want to chat? “I AM A HUMAN RECEPTIVE TO CONVERSE, PLEASE TALK TO ME ABOUT GEOPOLITICS”
Which is fine, if you’re as antisocial and spiteful against “casual life” like everyone in this post is pretending to be and you love it and you’re happy, that’s great. Say “just put it in the bag” and get out of there.
The problem is most of these people who act like people talking about “last night’s game” are NPC’s in the Matrix and they would NEVER stoop to the level of talking about sports or weather… are the same people who will race home to post their manifestos about how lonely they are and how society is crumbling and how they wish they lived somewhere walkable with community and how hard dating is.
Our cognitive dissonance as a species is maxing out.
Lotta folks on both sides of this conversation who have never been in a long-term relationship.
The current state of society is: “Ugh I can’t believe this cashier is talking about the weather when I’m in a hurry to get back on the internet to complain about how lonely I am and how hard it is to make friends and date.”
You’re probably joking, but know that there’s a subset of us that gets pathologically anxious and confused by small talk. Autistic people for example. Different folks, different strokes. Not everyone deals well with talking about the weather, and that’s ok. There’s billions who do deal well with it, and that’s ok too! Be a mensch and talk to them instead.
Oh I get it, I understand better than most, it’s why I make a pest of myself in these posts about the benefits of just talking to people.
It’s fine if you don’t like talking to strangers or making eye contact if you’re fine with your present social life. I am usually ragging on people about this because we’re also having some pretty serious issues with loneliness right now. And you don’t get from lonely to less-lonely by avoiding the things that make you uncomfortable.
I was non-verbal for a period as a child, deeply introverted, only recently diagnosed as on the spectrum though, particularly because when I was a child there was no real understanding of autism, so when taken to a doctor they just X-rayed my brain. I learned to adapt/mask but it took a long time for me to push through social discomfort and I also thought myself like many of the people in these posts who seem absolutely spiteful against people who try to strike up conversations with strangers. Again, it’s understandable if talking is uncomfortable for people, particularly if they are on the spectrum or have trauma, but we need to understand that social avoidance is an obstacle to overcome, not an identity to cherish.
Pushing through discomfort talking to people and actively making an effort to be open, to go ahead and babble nonsense, to stop being afraid of bothering people with my own autistic spiels or niche bullshit, I actually started to “get it” and understand how the game is played and from there only had strings of successes both personally and professionally. Meteoric at times.
It still took some effort, but took me until middle-age to unlock this skill-tree to even start trying to work on it, and I strongly feel like I could have had a much, much better life if I made that effort sooner, and if even one other person reading this sighs and says “Okay I’ll try speaking up at the next meeting” then I’ve done some good because I know their lives will improve if they stick to it.
It’s great that it worked out for you, and I’m happy for you, but we don’t need to force everyone to fit the same mould.
I really think that a huge issue we’ve been having since the dawn of the internet is the perplexing effect that seems to impact a large portion of the population, where when they see someone suggest something, they take it as “being forced” and I cannot understand it. I can only assume that we grew up in very different environments and a lot of people aren’t really aware of their own agency.
Ah my bad, I thought you were complaining about people not wanting to engage in small talk, and I thought you were suggesting that people should just suck it up and talk about the weather even if they don’t want to. I’m a bad communicator, and I sometimes misread stuff like that.
my suggestion is that if you’re lacking in social contact, or even if you just want to open up more opportunities in either social life or professional, don’t “suck it up” and pretend, but learn to understand and appreciate how socializing works by engaging in it like a game, learning what’s actually happening in “small talk” and how to make people feel comfortable with you and gain emotional intelligence and empathy; qualities that most people look for in friends and romantic partners.
This is a severely neglected field of understanding for a lot of younger men right now and I don’t think we should be making whole communities that provide validation for people avoiding the discomfort and instead we should treat it like exercise and diet. We don’t exercise and diet because it feels good, we do it because the results are worthwhile. We tell people struggling with it “Just stick with it, it gets easier” and we treat that like good advice.
And again, it wouldn’t be such an issue if there wasn’t such a massive problem right now with social isolation. It’s a message of public health, not social conformity. If you’re happy as things are, nobody is forcing you to do anything, but if you battle depressive episodes or are lacking in relationships, if you don’t feel like you have people to talk to, if you’ve never had someone give you comfort and support and you would like that, well the good news is you can have that. You can have people in your actual, real life who care about you, which can then open up more opportunities. But it takes exercise.
My wife asks how my day was “great, or good, or whatever” then I ask how her day was she usually stops talking before bedtime. Works for both of us!
Asking someone you love “How was your day?” is a meaningful question. Small talk is bullshit time wasting between randos or acquaintances.
“Lovely weather today, isn’t it?”
“Yeah, makes me feel like picnics,”
is expressing feelings to each other, affirming a shared worldview in which sunny weather is good, and affirming the value of each others’ feelings and potential plans.
Just because the real meaning is hidden, doesn’t negate the value.
That’s fair. Sometimes I can be a bit grumpy with randos.
It’s not small talk, because i actually care how my wife’s day was.
How do you get married to someone if you never started with small talk?
through meeting with intent so your talks are not small.
You seem lovely on dates
In the case of my grandfather he just went all in on his batshit insane stories, his first one was apparently how he electrocuted his balls. My grandmother avoided him initially, but after she realized he was the charming type of insane she warmed up to him. The fuck were people doing in the 70s?
Electrocuting their balls, apparently.
Well that and using chemicals that cause cancer if you don’t use a mask with a filter. He came to regret that one. My grandfather was a walking OSHA violation.
The free will question is much closer to the conversations I was having with my wife before we got married. We were talking for hours every day, I can’t imagine spending hours on small talk.
Well that wasn’t really the question. But actually I met her when we were both pretty young so I don’t recall it being much of an issue. We probably talked about kid stuff.
What’s your favorite color? Do you like hot wheels? Perhaps our definition of small talk differs from others. To me it’s a starting point to get into deeper conversations.
Because that way “I see you as a friend!” lies. At least that’s why I’m single.
I guess I see small talk as gateway questions to deeper conversations. I met me wife by asking about the weather.
“Hi there! Beautiful weather we’re having, isn’t it?”
“Yes, perfect for marrying…”
When I say “I hate small talk” I actually mean “please Shut up, Im really anxious and I don’t know what to respond to you other that nodding and «Thats crazy»”
When most people say “I hate small talk” it’s because they don’t socialize broadly and don’t really “get” how it works, and how it’s often just a way of expressing how you feel at that moment, and when two people are making small-talk, it’s less about the information being shared and more about the tone, intimacy and connection, like sharing space and being open with passing thoughts.
People in a healthy relationship will “small talk” for hours about the weather or pizza prices, and then launch into a deep debate about post-modernism and expressionist art, which will dissolve as one or both get distracted by the pizza finally arriving.
When someone says “I hate small talk” it just reveals they have no understanding how human connection actually works and think two people talking has to play out narratively like media, television shows or movies.
Small talk is the human equivalent to the initialization/handshake phase of the TCP protocol.
It establishes the connection, introduces the speakers, validates the presence of the other, and then allows data transmission to take place.
Unlike computers, we humans require years of practice to get it correct because there isn’t one set standard.
I hate small talk, because you (a stranger) do not interest me and I don’t care about trying to connect with you. I have neither the need nor the energy to try and am very comfortable just being in silence.
I small talk with people that I interact on a daily basis and need to communicate with (coworkers). Even then it heavily depends on how much energy I have.
I small talk with my friends and SO because I want to connect. So I put effort in to be present in the conversations.
It’s not right to lump small talk with a cashier, cab driver or a haircutter together with small talk with a friend or a partner.
I hate small talk, because you (a stranger) do not interest me and I don’t care about trying to connect with you.
Pretty much sums up all our problems as a civilization in one paragraph, thank you.
Listen man, we (as individuals) can’t care for or help everybody. Connect with the ones you care about and don’t harm everyone else. The fact that I don’t care about you, doesn’t mean we can’t coexist or even help each other.
Looking form another angle, why not wanting to socialize in stranger small talk is bad? Why I am expected to accommodate? Why can’t we just enjoy the silence in this hypothetical situation?
I see this sentiment more often than not. Me, as the less social party, is expected to move out of my comfort zone, but the person trying get me into a conversation isn’t expected do the same and just keep to themselves.
If relative isolation is what makes you happy or you have your own core group of people who will never leave you and they reliably fulfill your social needs, that’s fine. But I see this sentiment expressed by people who also whine endlessly how hard dating is, how hard it is to meet people and make friends, how hard it is to socialize, how lonely they are, etc. You can’t have it all.
I suppose there’s nuance in everything. That’s a fair criticism.
I appreciate the nuanced and self-examined reply, Satan.
Pal you actually sounds like someone who really HATES small talk, Jesus…
Understandable. And relatable.
after you get through all the asking each other stuff to get to know each other’s histories etc phase, it’s okay to just not talk all the time
It’s not just histories and facts, though. Sure, you don’t have to talk all the time, but sharing feelings and connection, in a relaxing way, through small talk, helps maintain and build that connection. More important for some people than others.
Silence is bliss while doing your own hobbies together.
I absolutely love questions like this! My wife absolutely hates them. She often gets irritated when people ask questions about what you think.
Like when our therapist asked her “How do you think your actions contribute to your own unhappiness?”
I feel like you wrote another six paragraphs about all the reasons why she asked your wife that specific question before deleting it all… I feel that feels.
I never was good at being subtle.
“How do you feel about being to blame for your problems and relationship difficulties?”
“Um… >:-(”
“See, you never like it when I ask about your feelings!”
I just went with forgoing my own self care and losing my sense of self in pursuit of meeting her ever changing expectations instead of acknowledging if come to define myself be the relationship. Not sure which is better…
Not to worry though, the papers are in the mail!
Ah, sorry to hear that. It’s a tough barrier to break, when a partnership is like that. I wish you the best in the future.
Not spelled like that, no.
Fuckin’ got 'em.
Hey, that’s racist. Freewill’s ancestors were enslaved and abused for generations, now they’re free so his parents, William and Wilhimina, named him Freewill to celebrate his freedom!
I do exactly this ! Hi honey how was your day ? Kids were restless ? Ok. Does that affect your stance on education through play ? is punishment sometimes advisable ? you haven’t read your copy of Foucault’s Discipl… hey where are you going ?.. baby ??
“I’ll be right back, I forgot my stack of research notes in the kitchen! Do you need citations?”
These kinds of philosophical questions are easily defeated by asking “does it matter though?”
I don’t think that defeats it at all, it just changes the direction of the conversation and is as deeply philosophical as the first. Some might say life goes on with or without free will so it doesn’t matter, other say that the a societal acceptance of the absence of free will removes the burden of guilt, and could reshape society in very profound ways, so of course it matters.
There is value in asking the question and in the consideration itself. Even if we never find the answer, it’s good for our brains to think about these things. Knowledge, and the search for it, can be an end unto itself. We don’t always need to do something with it.
a societal acceptance of the absence of free will removes the burden of guilt
Those cops, judges, lawyers, jail guards etc also don’t have free will, so while maybe the burden of guilt is gone, the legal repercussions still would exist all the same.
it may not matter at all, but we’re here, somehow, made of sentient flesh, kept on a giant rock hurling through space, spinning around an enormous buring ball of fire. it’s all bizarre and none of us knows what is going on, so why not take some time out of the lives we live as statistical abnormalities, and just ponder on the whys and hows and whats of the things around us, and our own minds
I guess, if they answer “No” or “Your simple rebuttal has made me realize the problem of free will is nbd actually”.
But if they say “Yes. It does matter.” Then suddenly it isn’t defeated and you’d need to provide a compelling argument for it not mattering, which would make for good conversation.
Old friend of mine: “Will this matter at my funeral?”
“It does if you are mad about me cheating on you.”
Small talk is the equivalent of dogs sniffing each others ass. The topic isn’t really the point, it’s just a quick and easy way to gauge another person’s mood and attitude towards you. It’s a skill worth developing. And I say this as someone with social anxiety.
But most people who are invested in small talk will be giving the signals they think the other person wants, making it less useful than not talking at all.
This is coming from someone who learned how to do small talk, watches other people completely flip their personality the moment they are out of the small talk, and only uses it when necessary because everyone else does. I do avoid common topics I have no interest in, like watching sports, and avoid getting into the weeds of topics and that works well enough for anyone I would want to talk to later.
But most people who are invested in small talk will be giving the signals they think the other person wants, making it less useful than not talking at all.
I don’t think this is true. When I engage in small talk, I don’t see it as me bending flexibly to the conversation partner’s wants. I’m testing to see if there are common overlaps that we can talk about, and talking for the sake of being entertained. If the other person turns out not to be a good conversation partner for me in that moment, I don’t think anything of just moving on. I’m not trying to please them, I’m trying to enjoy myself.
I can’t imagine I’m in the minority here.
Like Shakespeare, adapted by the band Rush, said:
Limelight Available on Moving Pictures Music: Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson Lyrics: Neil Peart
Living on a lighted stage Approaches the unreal For those who think and feel In touch with some reality Beyond the gilded cage
Cast in this unlikely role, Ill-equipped to act With insufficient tact One must put up barriers To keep oneself intact
Living in the Limelight The universal dream For those who wish to seem
Those who wish to be Must put aside the alienation Get on with the fascination The real relation The underlying theme
Living in a fisheye lens Caught in the camera eye I have no heart to lie I can’t pretend a stranger Is a long-awaited friend
All the world’s indeed a stage And we are merely players Performers and portrayers Each another’s audience Outside the gilded cage
I think the analogy is a bit crude but quite bang on.
I think it’s a good skill too and I have been clinically diagnosed with anxiety.
So small talk is a horrible name then.
Could one, instead, just ask “Hey, are you willing to get into a big deep metaphysical conversation right now?” Then ask the question?
small talk
Personally I think it is a very interesting and purely object oriented name though you are right it technically isn’t a functional one.
