After months of getting close, the relationship between Trump and his so-called ‘first buddy’ has become ‘fraught,’ according to a New York Times reporter
Hey, just so you’re aware, a lot of women and trans people find this joke pretty misogynistic and transphobic since it implies that it would be more demeaning for Elon to be a woman or queer than it is for him to be his regular cringey self. Something to keep in mind so we don’t friendly-fire on our allies!
Edit for anyone still struggling with this: if 👏 you 👏 misgender 👏 ANYONE 👏 on purpose 👏 then 👏 trans 👏 people 👏 will 👏 not 👏 trust 👏 you 👏
ThePowerofGeek, you’re great and appreciated and I hope you don’t read anything below from the people who want you to have a worse reaction so their feelings don’t get hurt vicariously.
I don’t think you, or the people you’re claiming to represent, understand the joke. First Lady Musk refers to Trump, not Elon. The implication isn’t that it’s demeaning to be a woman or queer, but that the spouse of the President has no real power or authority. This has nothing to do with their gender, and everything to do with the fact that they are the unelected spouse of an elected official.
The only ones who benefit when you misinterpret things in a way that implies unintended and unsubstantiated bigotry, are those who can use it to reinforce their claims of a misguidedly hypersensitive left, and thereby undermine justified recognition of intended and substantiated bigotry.
Because those terms will not aggravate trump. The intent is to aggravate trump not denigrate femininity. Focus ffs. This isn’t about insulting trans people or women, it’s about fighting back on someone who is trying to hurt them.
We will struggle to maintain allies if we cannot focus on the speakers intent and not a willing misinterpretation of their words.
the fact that some people will happily take a beating if it means they keep some “moral high ground” they get to be smug about would be funny if it weren’t so sad, and if it weren’t what got us four more years of the orange dipshit.
The Batman imagery makes a lot of sense, because it’s a fiction and I couldn’t ever imagine “the good guys” taking moral high grounds and winning wars (in Ukraine, etc) without guns.
(I say this as someone who agrees that the USA has way too many guns - but they’re a tool built for a purpose)
I mean, I understand all that too, but if you have to give that explanation within hours of using the phrase, isn’t it maybe an indication that this is a very real risk:
Something to keep in mind so we don’t friendly-fire on our allies!
Also:
The only ones who benefit when you misinterpret things in a way that implies unintended and unsubstantiated bigotry, are those who can use it to reinforce their claims of a misguidedly hypersensitive left, and thereby undermine justified recognition of intended and substantiated bigotry.
I hate to say it, but I don’t see much difference between relating the position of the right wing in an attempt to silence someone telling you that your turn of phrase was insensitive and actually holding the right wing position yourself. Do with that info what you will, I’m just calling it like I see it.
Then simple question, why not use First Gentleman? Kamala Harris’ husband was Second Gentleman and would have been first if she had won.
Going by your logic, that would be offensive to me, as a gay man.
But this kind of hypersensitivity, especially when applied regardless of context or intent, is one of the main drivers of the reactionary sentiment that is allowing the right to win elections all over the world. It’s one of the reasons why the “free speech” argument has worked so well in their favor.
Currently, the only ones benefitting from this “moral high-ground” stance are fragile little baby egos like Musk and Trump who can rest assured knowing their opposition would never stoop as low as them, while they get to freely spew as much intentionally evil shit as they want.
A society where no one is ever offended by anyone is a utopia. It’s as desirable as it is unattainable. I think the best thing we can do at the moment is focus on fighting back, not fighting against each other.
Then simple question, why not use First Gentleman?
Because we’ve never actually had a First Gentleman, so the term isn’t familiar. This is a scenario where strict accuracy muddles the rhetoric beyond recognition, which defeats the purpose.
You’re speaking with a lot of confidence about the validity of the feelings of a group of people
When did I say anything about the validity of anyone’s feelings?
The intent is to say something that will antagonise Trump. The intent is not to demean women.
Attacking someone who shares your moral platform because you purposefully misinterpret their words to suit a separate agenda is friendly fire.
Transphobia and misogyny are not to be tolerated, do you really think that someone attacking turnip (autocorrect, I’m leaving it) online doesn’t share your views on this?
Stip trying to police speech among your allies. Focus on intent. Stop with the nonsense infighting we are at war rn.
Why are trans people’s feelings less important than feelings of people making jokes online?
I don’t want to be arguing here either, that’s why I’m politely letting folks know that these sort of jokes may alienate their allies. You don’t have to do anything with that information if you don’t want to! Don’t engage with this at all, and feel free to let me know what material good you’ve done to fight for trans rights in the time saved, will you?
They are not just jokes. People posting these things are doing so specifically to antagonise the right.
I’m telling you that your concern trolling is alienating allies.
I have chosen to engage in this just like you chose to deal with the blowback when you posted it.
All I have done to “fight for trans rights” is to speak out when I can, challenge bigotry as I am challenging you right now, stand up and be counted at queer marches/events and raise a daughter who took the only trans kid in her high school to prom.
You don’t know my life and that isn’t the discussion. Stop deflecting and learn to focus on intent.
I don’t put much stock in post votes, but I don’t think a majority popular comment that the person I was replying to already agreed with is, uh, getting blowback. Honestly you seem to be the most hostile one here. If you’d read any of the lovely conversations I’ve already had with folks here, you’d understand that I haven’t blamed anyone for this joke, I am simply communicating what I have heard in the community, and I don’t have any expectations of changes in behavior as a result of this.
It’s not bigotry to call out jokes on the internet, btw. For someone fighting a war on behalf of us all I’d figure this would be lower priority!
I’m going to stop responding to you since you don’t seem to be engaging with the intention to actually listen to minorities, ciao!
I’m also in favor of the viewpoint that the “First Lady Trump” joke was fine. Just felt the need to comment on the last point; I’ve had that sentiment before too, but I’ve also seen danger in the idea that “Because my intentions were positive, I shouldn’t be criticized.” That’s been a defense used by bigots, too. eg, Trump throwing paper towels to disaster victims (even though he certainly didn’t have to take time out of his day to throw paper towels, gee, how nice he is!)
I’d like to hope that in the past 30 days I’ve never said anything racist/bigoted - but I’d also acknowledge the possibility that despite my positive intentions, I may have. It’s only important because these days very few people think themselves to be bigots. Think about the type of person most likely to say things like “I’m not racist!”
Ever found yourself saying, “But that’s not what I meant”?
You aren’t alone. Everyone tends to measure their responses based on their own interpretation of a situation, meaning that unintentional harm is bound to happen — none of us are above an accidental “ouch.”
If someone discloses that you hurt or offended them, the remainder of your relationship, whether it’s professional, romantic, or platonic, can depend on how you handle the situation.
Here’s how to get things back on track:
Listen with the goal of understanding where they’re coming from, not with the goal of defending yourself. It can help to use the active listening technique of repeating back exactly what you hear.
Center their feelings, not yours. It’s normal to feel a little prickly when someone tells you that you did something wrong, and you disagree. But take a beat and a deep breath, and know that you can talk about your feelings later.
Genuinely apologize or acknowledge the impact that your actions had on them. Steer clear of “I’m sorry if,” “I’m sorry you,” or “I’m sorry but,” as these all lack accountability and put the blame on the one who was hurt. A simple “I’m sorry for doing that, and I’ll do better next time” can go a long way.
Stip trying to police speech among your allies. Focus on intent. Stop with the nonsense infighting we are at war rn.
Isn’t that what you’re doing by telling trans people to put up or shut up when ‘allies’ use transphobic/misogynist insults against ‘enemies’
How are we supposed to know that we won’t just become the next acceptable target for misogynistic/transphobic abuse if/when we end up on liberals ‘enemies’ list?
Trump and Elon are buffoons, it’s not hard to mock them without tolerating misogyny to do so.
Well the truth is as the world goes down the shitter you’ll lose allies anyway. People don’t care about these issues when they have to worry about shelter and food.
I don’t think the people being misogynistic to some rich assholes on twitter are worried about shelter or food.
That said I also don’t see how the fact that fair-weather allies will eventually abandon their positions when things get hard is a case against having standards for behavior in the here and now.
It isn’t tolerating misogyny, it’s pointing out misogyny and ridiculing misogynists.
It’s OK if you don’t like how that’s being done, and it’s OK if you can’t understand the nuance but policing my speech unchallenged is not what is going to happen.
I think I got the nuance behind ‘bigoted man I disagree with is actually a woman because women amirite?’.
I’m trans, and like actually hate these people, they deserve ridicule. However, if I’m willing to tolerate bigotry on my behalf towards people that are in some out-group, there’s no guarantee that some day I won’t be among that out-group and subsequently targeted by that type of bigotry. Do you understand the issue I’m raising?
I can’t tolerate people misgendering Caitlen Jenner or Blair white because while they suck, it only contributes to an environment where that type of insult is then considered acceptable.
I think I got the nuance behind ‘bigoted man I disagree with is actually a woman because women amirite?’.
Nope.
It goes like this: ‘bigoted man is bigoted because this will aggravate his orange tits. If bigoted man was not bigoted it would not be possible to rip on him like this.’
Put another way: ‘I am a bigot, said John.’
If that doesn’t clarify it then I’m out of patience to explain further.
And your fighting for them. Good for you. Want a sticker. It’s a joke. And this can’t offend anybody is how and why we are where we are with more people moving to the right.
Firstly, “President Musk” isn’t a joke.
Secondly, half the reason everybody says it is to piss off Vice-President Trump.
Fixed it for you. Trump doesn’t even have the prestige or influence of a vice president (and that alone speaks volumes) in this situation.
Edit: no offense meant to women/trans folks.
Hey, just so you’re aware, a lot of women and trans people find this joke pretty misogynistic and transphobic since it implies that it would be more demeaning for Elon to be a woman or queer than it is for him to be his regular cringey self. Something to keep in mind so we don’t friendly-fire on our allies!
Edit for anyone still struggling with this: if 👏 you 👏 misgender 👏 ANYONE 👏 on purpose 👏 then 👏 trans 👏 people 👏 will 👏 not 👏 trust 👏 you 👏
ThePowerofGeek, you’re great and appreciated and I hope you don’t read anything below from the people who want you to have a worse reaction so their feelings don’t get hurt vicariously.
I don’t think you, or the people you’re claiming to represent, understand the joke. First Lady Musk refers to Trump, not Elon. The implication isn’t that it’s demeaning to be a woman or queer, but that the spouse of the President has no real power or authority. This has nothing to do with their gender, and everything to do with the fact that they are the unelected spouse of an elected official.
The only ones who benefit when you misinterpret things in a way that implies unintended and unsubstantiated bigotry, are those who can use it to reinforce their claims of a misguidedly hypersensitive left, and thereby undermine justified recognition of intended and substantiated bigotry.
Then simple question, why not use First Gentleman? Kamala Harris’ husband was Second Gentleman and would have been first if she had won.
You’re speaking with a lot of confidence about the validity of the feelings of a group of people who, I’m guessing, you are not apart of.
Because those terms will not aggravate trump. The intent is to aggravate trump not denigrate femininity. Focus ffs. This isn’t about insulting trans people or women, it’s about fighting back on someone who is trying to hurt them. We will struggle to maintain allies if we cannot focus on the speakers intent and not a willing misinterpretation of their words.
I am going to stand by my position that misgendering isn’t cool, thanks
Not using the weapons of the enemy is what landed the enemy a victory.
the fact that some people will happily take a beating if it means they keep some “moral high ground” they get to be smug about would be funny if it weren’t so sad, and if it weren’t what got us four more years of the orange dipshit.
Cool the don’t do it. Are you able to do that while not alienating people who share your views perhaps? That’d be great.
Are you?
Oh damn the moral paragon of squint batman, the trust fund billionaire beating up the mentally disabled.
The Batman imagery makes a lot of sense, because it’s a fiction and I couldn’t ever imagine “the good guys” taking moral high grounds and winning wars (in Ukraine, etc) without guns.
(I say this as someone who agrees that the USA has way too many guns - but they’re a tool built for a purpose)
I mean, I understand all that too, but if you have to give that explanation within hours of using the phrase, isn’t it maybe an indication that this is a very real risk:
Also:
I hate to say it, but I don’t see much difference between relating the position of the right wing in an attempt to silence someone telling you that your turn of phrase was insensitive and actually holding the right wing position yourself. Do with that info what you will, I’m just calling it like I see it.
Going by your logic, that would be offensive to me, as a gay man.
But this kind of hypersensitivity, especially when applied regardless of context or intent, is one of the main drivers of the reactionary sentiment that is allowing the right to win elections all over the world. It’s one of the reasons why the “free speech” argument has worked so well in their favor.
Currently, the only ones benefitting from this “moral high-ground” stance are fragile little baby egos like Musk and Trump who can rest assured knowing their opposition would never stoop as low as them, while they get to freely spew as much intentionally evil shit as they want.
A society where no one is ever offended by anyone is a utopia. It’s as desirable as it is unattainable. I think the best thing we can do at the moment is focus on fighting back, not fighting against each other.
Because we’ve never actually had a First Gentleman, so the term isn’t familiar. This is a scenario where strict accuracy muddles the rhetoric beyond recognition, which defeats the purpose.
When did I say anything about the validity of anyone’s feelings?
Because nobody knows what those are.
Hmm, good to know. Thanks.
The intent is to say something that will antagonise Trump. The intent is not to demean women.
Attacking someone who shares your moral platform because you purposefully misinterpret their words to suit a separate agenda is friendly fire.
Transphobia and misogyny are not to be tolerated, do you really think that someone attacking turnip (autocorrect, I’m leaving it) online doesn’t share your views on this?
Stip trying to police speech among your allies. Focus on intent. Stop with the nonsense infighting we are at war rn.
Why are trans people’s feelings less important than feelings of people making jokes online?
I don’t want to be arguing here either, that’s why I’m politely letting folks know that these sort of jokes may alienate their allies. You don’t have to do anything with that information if you don’t want to! Don’t engage with this at all, and feel free to let me know what material good you’ve done to fight for trans rights in the time saved, will you?
They are not just jokes. People posting these things are doing so specifically to antagonise the right.
I’m telling you that your concern trolling is alienating allies.
I have chosen to engage in this just like you chose to deal with the blowback when you posted it.
All I have done to “fight for trans rights” is to speak out when I can, challenge bigotry as I am challenging you right now, stand up and be counted at queer marches/events and raise a daughter who took the only trans kid in her high school to prom.
You don’t know my life and that isn’t the discussion. Stop deflecting and learn to focus on intent.
I don’t put much stock in post votes, but I don’t think a majority popular comment that the person I was replying to already agreed with is, uh, getting blowback. Honestly you seem to be the most hostile one here. If you’d read any of the lovely conversations I’ve already had with folks here, you’d understand that I haven’t blamed anyone for this joke, I am simply communicating what I have heard in the community, and I don’t have any expectations of changes in behavior as a result of this.
It’s not bigotry to call out jokes on the internet, btw. For someone fighting a war on behalf of us all I’d figure this would be lower priority!
I’m going to stop responding to you since you don’t seem to be engaging with the intention to actually listen to minorities, ciao!
I’m also in favor of the viewpoint that the “First Lady Trump” joke was fine. Just felt the need to comment on the last point; I’ve had that sentiment before too, but I’ve also seen danger in the idea that “Because my intentions were positive, I shouldn’t be criticized.” That’s been a defense used by bigots, too. eg, Trump throwing paper towels to disaster victims (even though he certainly didn’t have to take time out of his day to throw paper towels, gee, how nice he is!)
I’d like to hope that in the past 30 days I’ve never said anything racist/bigoted - but I’d also acknowledge the possibility that despite my positive intentions, I may have. It’s only important because these days very few people think themselves to be bigots. Think about the type of person most likely to say things like “I’m not racist!”
And they are telling you that your lack of empathy is alienating a different set of allies. Those who you seem to claim to be allied with.
I mean, this is 101 stuff.
https://www.healthline.com/health/intent-vs-impact
Listen with the goal of understanding where they’re coming from, not with the goal of defending yourself. It can help to use the active listening technique of repeating back exactly what you hear.
Center their feelings, not yours. It’s normal to feel a little prickly when someone tells you that you did something wrong, and you disagree. But take a beat and a deep breath, and know that you can talk about your feelings later.
Genuinely apologize or acknowledge the impact that your actions had on them. Steer clear of “I’m sorry if,” “I’m sorry you,” or “I’m sorry but,” as these all lack accountability and put the blame on the one who was hurt. A simple “I’m sorry for doing that, and I’ll do better next time” can go a long way.
Isn’t that what you’re doing by telling trans people to put up or shut up when ‘allies’ use transphobic/misogynist insults against ‘enemies’
How are we supposed to know that we won’t just become the next acceptable target for misogynistic/transphobic abuse if/when we end up on liberals ‘enemies’ list?
Trump and Elon are buffoons, it’s not hard to mock them without tolerating misogyny to do so.
Well the truth is as the world goes down the shitter you’ll lose allies anyway. People don’t care about these issues when they have to worry about shelter and food.
I don’t think the people being misogynistic to some rich assholes on twitter are worried about shelter or food.
That said I also don’t see how the fact that fair-weather allies will eventually abandon their positions when things get hard is a case against having standards for behavior in the here and now.
It isn’t tolerating misogyny, it’s pointing out misogyny and ridiculing misogynists.
It’s OK if you don’t like how that’s being done, and it’s OK if you can’t understand the nuance but policing my speech unchallenged is not what is going to happen.
I think I got the nuance behind ‘bigoted man I disagree with is actually a woman because women amirite?’.
I’m trans, and like actually hate these people, they deserve ridicule. However, if I’m willing to tolerate bigotry on my behalf towards people that are in some out-group, there’s no guarantee that some day I won’t be among that out-group and subsequently targeted by that type of bigotry. Do you understand the issue I’m raising?
I can’t tolerate people misgendering Caitlen Jenner or Blair white because while they suck, it only contributes to an environment where that type of insult is then considered acceptable.
Nope.
It goes like this: ‘bigoted man is bigoted because this will aggravate his orange tits. If bigoted man was not bigoted it would not be possible to rip on him like this.’
Put another way: ‘I am a bigot, said John.’
If that doesn’t clarify it then I’m out of patience to explain further.
That’s cool I don’t need any more explanations.
First asshole musk
Nah, they have at least two each…
On the flip side, I feel like his daughter would appreciate it.
I’d want to ask her first, because all the trans people I know personally are icked out by it.
And your fighting for them. Good for you. Want a sticker. It’s a joke. And this can’t offend anybody is how and why we are where we are with more people moving to the right.
Trump isn’t even vice president. He is “guy who has to sign papers.”
Rubber-stamp Don
Assistant Vice Secretary Pencil Bitch
First “Gentleman” Trump.